David Harris
Expedition Leader
With open diffs and all else being equal, which would you choose: the ability to fit larger tires or more suspension travel/articulation? Give reasons please.
David
David
Bigger tires or more suspension travel?
- Thread starter David Harris
- Start date
David Harris
Expedition Leader
Thinking of a lift for my D2 at the moment (once I get the 4.6 in and running, of course). I like the look of 33's on these trucks, and based on the Jeeps I've driven with 33-35's that size works well off road too. However, it seems like most lifts actually limit suspension travel, and even require lowered bump stops with larger size tires, so it got me thinking about which actually has the advantage, smaller tires with a more compliant and longer traveling suspension, or the advantage if greater ground clearance with taller/stiffer springs and larger tires. Seems like a trade off, but in real life is there an edge either way? I'm thinking most of general mixed trail riding, Camel Trophy style, not hard core rock crawling. The Camel Trophy trucks seemed to do pretty well all around with 31 inch tires on stock springs.
Alaska Mike
ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
From my experience with my old CJ in Alaska mud, here's what I figured out:
Bang-for-the-buck, the proper tires had the biggest impact. I had ARBs front and rear, a somewhat flexy suspension, and a quality set of tires. At first I had BFG ATs, which were soon replaced by Super Swamper SSRs. It was a night and day improvement. I still had to use my lockers, but directional control and stability was greatly improved. That said, when I went to the bias ply Super Swampers I experienced a quantum leap forward in traction. I rarely used the ARBs anymore, and I was driving through stuff that used to have me pulling cable.
All of these tires were within the same range of sizes, but the compounds and tread design vastly affected performance. Each had their good and bad points (the ATs were great on the road and the bias plys flat spotted and howled on the highway), so you had to factor your goals into the decision, but at the end of the day I was sold on the old Swampers. If I was to ever consider a serious mud trip (ala Camel Trophy), that would be my go-to tire. Not everyone's cup of tea, but it worked for me.
Bang-for-the-buck, the proper tires had the biggest impact. I had ARBs front and rear, a somewhat flexy suspension, and a quality set of tires. At first I had BFG ATs, which were soon replaced by Super Swamper SSRs. It was a night and day improvement. I still had to use my lockers, but directional control and stability was greatly improved. That said, when I went to the bias ply Super Swampers I experienced a quantum leap forward in traction. I rarely used the ARBs anymore, and I was driving through stuff that used to have me pulling cable.
All of these tires were within the same range of sizes, but the compounds and tread design vastly affected performance. Each had their good and bad points (the ATs were great on the road and the bias plys flat spotted and howled on the highway), so you had to factor your goals into the decision, but at the end of the day I was sold on the old Swampers. If I was to ever consider a serious mud trip (ala Camel Trophy), that would be my go-to tire. Not everyone's cup of tea, but it worked for me.
Think of it this way. The lowest point on a truck is what will get you stuck. So even if you have a 5 foot lift kit with tiny tires, the diff will still be closest to the ground. With bigger tires, everything will be further up in the air.
So if you have to chose only one, then go for tires.
At the end of the day it depends on the terrain you driving on.
So if you have to chose only one, then go for tires.
At the end of the day it depends on the terrain you driving on.
Scott Brady
Founder
A bigger, better tire will provide significant improvements in performance. Even stock, a LR has more than sufficient suspension travel.
You would be shocked where a truck like this can go - with almost no suspension travel.
You would be shocked where a truck like this can go - with almost no suspension travel.
JIMBO
Expedition Leader
:sombrero: ABove info--well said, the tire size, especially with "open diffs" is the most important for Diff. clearance and
That should be 9" +++if you had 4' of vertical articulation and still had 6" diff clearance--getta winch
First--bigger tires/w body clearance
2nd--gearing/suspension travel/shocks/brake lines
3rd--rear LSD or lockers for a little more extreme
4th-the list grows, depending on your exploring nature !
:costumed-smiley-007:wings: JIMBO
That should be 9" +++if you had 4' of vertical articulation and still had 6" diff clearance--getta winch
First--bigger tires/w body clearance
2nd--gearing/suspension travel/shocks/brake lines
3rd--rear LSD or lockers for a little more extreme
4th-the list grows, depending on your exploring nature !
:costumed-smiley-007:wings: JIMBO
Alaska Mike
ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
Really Scott, you had to pull the Toyota card in the Land Rover section? Are you insane? 
With this type of terrain in mind the order you should do is... tires, lockers, better suspension.
There is no tire out there which can do it all, pick a tread for your terrain and the largest size which will fit your vic's body & suspension.
Lockers well, make your truck a 4x4 instead of a 2x4. Traction is the key and what you are after. Tires are first but then you want all four tires to be powered when desired instead of one in front and one in back.
Your statement about lifts actually limiting travel is referring to people not matching up lift components. In other word they are not setup properly. An indepth discussoin of suspension is beyound the scope of this reply but the short version is articulation only comes into play when crossing uneven terrain between your tracks. Here again the key is traction; a tire in the air does not provide traction.
Scott Brady
Founder
Really Scott, you had to pull the Toyota card in the Land Rover section? Are you insane?
Valid point. . .
I watched a dozen Trophy vidoes tonight, and the most common reason a vehicle got stock, is do lack of diff locks.
Vehicles with same height, same suspension and tires, had to be winched out do to lack of diff locks.
Vehicles with diff locks drove over same terain and passage, with little effort.
LSD is good, but i killed them too many times in the past, so from now on its diff locks all around for me.
Vehicles with same height, same suspension and tires, had to be winched out do to lack of diff locks.
Vehicles with diff locks drove over same terain and passage, with little effort.
LSD is good, but i killed them too many times in the past, so from now on its diff locks all around for me.
Alaska Mike
ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
Yes, all other things being equal, the vehicle with lockers will go farther. I'm not sure if that proves the superiority of lockers, though. I've seen automatic lockers cause serious problems (think slick sidehills and technical sections), so they aren't the end-all, be-all of off-pavement equipment. The best thing I liked about my ARBs was the ability to turn them off.
The biggest common denominator of the Camel Trophy vehicles? Winches, because they are designed to get you out of trouble, rather than deeper into trouble. Never underestimate the utility of a good set of recovery gear. My 8274 is moving from my CJ to my Series III, because it's proven itself time and time again.
I actually like wheeling in less-capable rigs these days, because it makes milder trails more challenging and allows for more problem-solving exercises. At a certain point, you can overbuild for the terrain, and you are reduced to climbing pointless obstacles to keep things interesting. A good tire on a stout vehicle, and you have the makings of a fun day.
DividingCreek
Explorer
I'm running 35's on a 130 with only a front spring change to OME764's and some front wheel spacers to retain turning radius (thing is already a schoolbus compared to a 90), no other mods. The truck handles better both on and off road with larger rubber. Realize you diidn't ask about lockers but they completely transform a truck and your driving style offroad. On winches- I don't pull a winch cable often but when I do its usually to pull out someone with a poorly set up truck and big cajones.
Alaska Mike
ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
When I lived in Idaho, I rarely saw the need for a winch. High plains desert meant sand and rock, and the vast majority of "stucks" could be dealt with using minimal recovery gear. Scott was usually along, so we pulled each other out quite frequently. I got along fine with BFG ATs for the most part, although I wished I had MTs.
When I lived in northwest Florida (and travelled to places like Tellico), the mud was usually clay based, so while it didn't get "deep", it certainly was slick. I added ARBs, but for the most part my BFG ATs were sufficient again. A tug here or there, and I drove over most of what was put in front of me. Still wanted mud tires, though.
When I got to Alaska, and started doing more Camel Trophy-style wheeling, I saw the utility of a winch. Scott took my avatar picture when I sank the CJ up to the fenders, and it certainly wasn't the only time I did that. It was a rare trip that I didn't pull cable at least once for myself or others. The ATs finally gave way to the SSRs, which eventually were replaced by the TSL bias plys, because I noticed similar, non-locked rigs were out-performing mine. For a while I was happy with the way my Jeep was working, until the constant arms race of bigger tires/custom buggies and the ever climbing cost of day-trip wheeling caused me to lose interest.
So, setup completely depends on terrain. Also, wheelbase means tire size is more or less relative in technical terrain- a short wheelbase rig can often get away with a smaller tire. Going with a much larger tire means you have to address a host of other things (clearance, strength, braking, gearing...). Larger tires can cross more terrain, but can also dig deeper holes, making extraction more problematic. Most people don't realize the capabilities of a near-stock vehicle, because they never develop the skill-set required.
I guess that's my long-winded way of saying a favor a slightly-larger-than-stock, more aggressive tire as the answer to the original question.
When I lived in northwest Florida (and travelled to places like Tellico), the mud was usually clay based, so while it didn't get "deep", it certainly was slick. I added ARBs, but for the most part my BFG ATs were sufficient again. A tug here or there, and I drove over most of what was put in front of me. Still wanted mud tires, though.
When I got to Alaska, and started doing more Camel Trophy-style wheeling, I saw the utility of a winch. Scott took my avatar picture when I sank the CJ up to the fenders, and it certainly wasn't the only time I did that. It was a rare trip that I didn't pull cable at least once for myself or others. The ATs finally gave way to the SSRs, which eventually were replaced by the TSL bias plys, because I noticed similar, non-locked rigs were out-performing mine. For a while I was happy with the way my Jeep was working, until the constant arms race of bigger tires/custom buggies and the ever climbing cost of day-trip wheeling caused me to lose interest.
So, setup completely depends on terrain. Also, wheelbase means tire size is more or less relative in technical terrain- a short wheelbase rig can often get away with a smaller tire. Going with a much larger tire means you have to address a host of other things (clearance, strength, braking, gearing...). Larger tires can cross more terrain, but can also dig deeper holes, making extraction more problematic. Most people don't realize the capabilities of a near-stock vehicle, because they never develop the skill-set required.
I guess that's my long-winded way of saying a favor a slightly-larger-than-stock, more aggressive tire as the answer to the original question.