looking for an expedition car/wagon/small suv.

[mrsa111]

Hi there, ive been thinking about a new car as my current car is slowly dying. anyways, ive got lots of friends who offroad, I personally like to do a lot of camping/exploring, and just love driving.

the thing is, i couldnt have an suv as my single, even second vehicle. i love cars that handle well, and i love rallying around on my friends property and roads around his house, drifting around in snow etc.. so im looking at cars, wagons, crossovers, maybe small suv's or even small trucks (VW rabbit truck??) ive driven plenty of bigger suv's and capable offroaders and i just couldnt live with the poor handling. now that being said, i understand that to get to places, and have a somewhat capable car i will need to sacrifice some handling ability for ride height, big/proper tires, softer suspension etc..

some ideas ive had are old audi's like the audi 90, locking center diff i believe, super strong and reliable awd system. and for an audi, its actually reliable.
a suzuki sx4, the fact that it has a locking center diff, low gearing, in a lightweight good handling platform is great stuff, my concern is the strength and quality of the awd/4wd system, and it would need some more power.

an e30 325ix. e30's are some very reliable cars, ive always loved them, and the ix comes as high or higher than a lot of crossovers, and good handling is a given.

thats about it. ive looked at some modern crossovers, tiguan, juke, etc.. and just havent seen the right combination of handling, awd, and offroad ability yet.

an awd wagon would be great, but i dont like subarus, ive driven plenty of them and have never been impressed. and unfortunately the outback is a great platform for what im looking for.

id even consider some RWD cars.

budget would be about 10-12, if i could make it my only car then 25.

so anyone got any ideas? needs to handle well, not be huge, doesnt need to be able to do technical offroading, but i do need to be able to lift it/use big tires and get around some pretty gnarly stuff.

if anyone knows of any builds they can show me that would be great as well.

Thanks!

 

[ihatemybike]

Sounds like you are really looking for an AWD wagon of some sort. You pan the Suburas, but I've seen too many videos of them handling great. Since you are talking about lifting and tires and thus altering suspension, might as well upgrade the coils, struts//shocks, bushing, etc while the lift is being put in.

My wife's Liberty handles much better lifted, on 32s, with the rear sway bar removed, than it did stock.

 

[TomSuddard]

I have an E30 325is set up for STX-class SCCA autocrossing; I've been autocrossing for 11 years. With that said, my expedition vehicle is a big lumbering SUV.

My advice: deal with the poor handling in exchange for the space/cheapness/capability that a SUV offers. Plus, I love gaining on riced-out civics on on-ramps in my Trooper with a tent on top. An experienced driver is a great equalizer, and a well-driven SUV will surprise lots of people.

 

[Warn Industries]

We really liked our Suzuki SX4s, and you can get them a good price since they don't have a great resale (and now that Suzuki is leaving the country, I'd expect prices to go down further).

Other possibilities that come to mind:

Toyota RAV4
Toyota Matrix (too low?)
Honda CR-V
Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute

- Andy

 

[4D55 Performance]

I know you are dead set against an SUV because of poor handling, but I think you can have you cake and eat it too. I recommend the 2003-2006 Mitsubishi Montero. They handle like a they are on rails because of their unibody construction and fully independent suspension, but they are an SUV with true offroad capability. Here is a good link to give you some more info on the Gen III Montero. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gYJCNPYJTM

 

[mrsa111]

Take another look at Subaru.
Between the Impreza, Forester and Outback you should be able to find something that fits your needs or at least be used as a platform for something great.
Subaru's are like legos in that you can mix and match components from different models to make it what you want.
I'm partial to the Impreza WRX because it's got sports car roots and design but with some suspension upgrades to accomodate larger and meatier tires (with the added benefit of increased ground clearance) it can easy take me into areas far away from asphault.
The Outback and Forester both offer turbo models but their larger size means more cargo room (both internal and on the roof).
There is tons of aftermarket support. Way more than any of the other vehicles you're considering.
I don't know alot about the current used market for Forester and Outback but don't doubt that you can find solid vehicles for under $10k.

You can get a solid '02/'03 WRX for about $7k now, add in about $1-$1.5K for suspension and tires and you're ready to rally/drift/offroad.

I have about $10k into this '03 WRX I bought a few months ago; that includes vehicle, lift, 5 tires, aux lighting, IndelB fridge, roof cargo box, mudflaps and skidplates.

Some day I'll do a full Forrester suspension swap and get big clearance out of it.

http://www.topscoob.com/2010/01/sti-as-stomper-full-story-behind.html

Related Subaru Impreza links.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1228188
http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=67

Check this thread that shows a Legacy sedan venturing around Utah.
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/87741-White-Rim-Trail-in-a-Subaru/page2

it sucks because you're completely right, ive been looking at lifted subaru's more than anything just for inspiration, like you put it, they are like lego's. they really cannot be beat in that regard. an outback xt (06'ish era) lifted, and on some big meaty tires would literally be perfect. its fast, handles well in stock form, and plenty of room for cargo. ive worked in my friends shop where they get a lot of subaru's and seen and worked on them along side audi's and other european cars, and ive just not been impressed with the strength/reliability ive seen. seems like they are great if you dont drive them hard, but they fall apart when you really push them hard. not trying to diss subaru's, but thats just what ive seen.
ive driven my friends sti on a couple track days, and really didnt like the handling much at all, understeers a lot unless you really throw it around, which is slow. but most of all i didnt like the lack of feel, im super critical when it comes to that.
this is all coming from someone who's never owned one, so i guess dont knock it till you try it, but i have had experience with them.

maybe ill just have to sack up and take them as a serious consideration. they really are too damn perfect.

 

[Warn Industries]

maybe ill just have to sack up and take them as a serious consideration. they really are too damn perfect.

It's funny because that's exactly how I felt before buying mine. Here in the Portland area Subarus are a dime a dozen—one reason I wasn't all that interested in one. However, since I wanted to sell our SX4, there really weren't any other good options for an AWD smaller vehicle with a manual transmission. Subaru offers nearly every model with a manual option—something I respect as a fringe lunatic manual transmission driver! I really could not think of a reason really not to buy one.

- Andy

 

[NC_IslandRunner]

If you don't mind a little age on the car I've seen some impressive stuff out of a AMC Eagle. Just ask eaglefreak.

 

[Jrally]

You aren't seriously expecting sports car handling out of an off road capable vehicle are you? All awd cars push/understeer unless pushed past the grip limit of one end or the other, just the nature of having all corners fighting to be the fastest. My Celica is fair at on road and off road duties, but it's never going to great at both. You could find a vehicle that, with a little work can be converted between dual duties, different springs, maybe air bags for off road lift and carrying, swaybar disconnects for off road articulation. But it'll always be a compromise.

-Jon

 

[mrsa111]

You aren't seriously expecting sports car handling out of an off road capable vehicle are you? All awd cars push/understeer unless pushed past the grip limit of one end or the other, just the nature of having all corners fighting to be the fastest. My Celica is fair at on road and off road duties, but it's never going to great at both. You could find a vehicle that, with a little work can be converted between dual duties, different springs, maybe air bags for off road lift and carrying, swaybar disconnects for off road articulation. But it'll always be a compromise.

-Jon

I dont expect my car to handle like a sports car in terms of pure on road capability, i know that lifting and using offroad tires on any decent handling car is going to kill a lot of its ability. i just want to keep that sports car feel and retain at least some of its on road capability. really, for a street car im not too concerned with the cars limits, im fine with it not having a ton of grip, some of the most fun ive had in sports cars on the road was in an old 914 which was pretty much on bike tires, and a miata with skinny all seasons. both of which had hardly any grip, but still had amazing balance and feel, you just got to their limit sooner, which for a street car made it more fun. thats all i expect, sports car balance and feel.

and the plan would be to have a set of big offroad tires, then a set of slightly oversized street/summer tires. on two sets of rims.

you mentioning your celica reminded me of this... (a celica all trac is now on my list!, any info about yours?)

thats about the ride height/stance i want. high enough to clear anything on non technical trails, yet still low enough to have a decent C.O.G. and they probably handle pretty damn well on the road. theres tons of logging roads around me that i take to go camping, also usually do a road trip or two to moab, would be nice to have something able to get around that huge network of trails. I guess you could describe my vision as something on the higher/more offroad side of a rally car.

I realize with my budget it might be hard to get something built that has both good power, handling, and awd. so i might have to sacrifice one of those. one of my concerns is that an awd car with little power is going to be plain boring. i want to be able to slide around and break the rear loose with relative ease. its not gonna happen on most the awd cars ill be able to afford. so I am considering RWD. like i dont expect to be able to do any technical climbing or anything, so id think 2wd would get me pretty much anywhere id be willing to take my car, especially with good tires.

since a subaru is the easy answer, im trying to think of the alternatives. i know right now if i went the subaru route id get an outback xt, or a bugeye wrx.

 

[ttravis5446]

Have you thought about a Volvo? Their AWD wagons are plenty fun to drive and have enough power. I am simialar to you in that a Subaru would probably be about perfect for me but I just can't get into them. I looked long and hard at the Volvos and at older Audi Allroad's a few years ago. In the end I ended up buying a Land Rover Discovery. It was cheap, AWD, wagon like, handeled much better than anticipated, and had enough power for me. It was taller than a Subie but I don't know how much bigger than an outback it really was. That thing was a blast bombing down backroads in Wyoming in the winter time. I know it's not everyones thing, but it worked for me and it was so much cooler than a Subaru in my book.

 

[Jrally]

Well here's the lengthy build up thread for my Celica: http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/39512-New-adventure-Toy(ota)-in-AZ?highlight=jrally
It was built with a similar mind set as yours, a good all around vehicle to take me where ever I felt like that day. It took a while to develop the suspension, it started out handling like a big trophy truck, lying over in the corners on the street, felt like it leaned a foot. After having custom front struts made, heavier rear springs and revalving the rear shocks about 30-40% stiffer, it now handles decently on road, predictable enough to drift through sweeping turns. Off road, it's changed from a slow moving rock crawling type suspension to more of a high speed rally style suspension. It loves to go fast down moderately bumpy dirt roads. The really rough, more crawling roads are a bit more tossing about now, but still comfortable enough.

-Jon

 

[mrsa111]

Well here's the lengthy build up thread for my Celica: http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/39512-New-adventure-Toy(ota)-in-AZ?highlight=jrally
It was built with a similar mind set as yours, a good all around vehicle to take me where ever I felt like that day. It took a while to develop the suspension, it started out handling like a big trophy truck, lying over in the corners on the street, felt like it leaned a foot. After having custom front struts made, heavier rear springs and revalving the rear shocks about 30-40% stiffer, it now handles decently on road, predictable enough to drift through sweeping turns. Off road, it's changed from a slow moving rock crawling type suspension to more of a high speed rally style suspension. It loves to go fast down moderately bumpy dirt roads. The really rough, more crawling roads are a bit more tossing about now, but still comfortable enough.

-Jon

ahh yeah ive see that car before! very cool build! and im guessing you probably never, or hardly feel like you NEED 4wd to get anywhere? If i werent in a subaru or another turbo/high power awd car, im think more and more id want rwd. if i went the 325ix or audi 90 route, at least those are very good platforms for an engine swap for cheap.

 

[Cee-Jay]

You can get Mitsubishi Endeavor's pretty darn cheap... solid crossover SUV that never really caught on. Car-like front and rear independent suspension handles well - tied the BMW X5 for 1st place in Road & Track's slalom course. 8.3" ground clearance, adequate trail dimensions, V-6 delivers good low-end acceleration (passing at high speed is only okay). Some models were available with traction control and towing package models had a tranny cooler.. full sized spare as available on some models. In general, pro reviewers considered it one of the more fun crossovers to drive. Not available in stick, but the auto tranny has a manual mode. Absolutely no aftermarket support though.

I imagine a German wagon will blow it away on the pavement of course... so depends if you're willing to go crossover SUV or not. As far as crossovers go, it's a decent option.

You can put a bunch of money into lifting a wagon... or you can just by a crossover which is, well, basically a wagon with some extra ground clearance.

 

[Todd n Natalie]

AWD wagon but no Subaru... Well then my next choice would be a Volvo XC70...