The Gubblemobile- Series III from hell.

Alaska Mike

ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
Sorry for the inane questions, but is there a case split for higher or lower gearsets, or is there only one case for all?

The Rover route is sounding better and better, especially if I downsize my tires a little (31x10.50s or something along those lines) and stay with open diffs (which was my intention).

I'm going to have to do some real thinking over the holiday and weigh my options.

By the way, what payment options do you take for your axles?
 

Mercedesrover

Explorer
Alaska Mike said:
Sorry for the inane questions, but is there a case split for higher or lower gearsets, or is there only one case for all?

By the way, what payment options do you take for your axles?

The cases have some differences, the biggest being the side bearing size. If you find a 24-spline pumpkin the only thing you'll need to install your 4:70 gear set is the spacer ring.

I can take a check or Paypal. Email me off-board if you're interested.

jim
 

Alaska Mike

ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
The Novak adapters and rebuild kit showed up yesterday (Merry Christmas). The pile grows...

I've started looking harder at keeping my Rover axles and making the modifications that Mercedesrover suggested. Buying a new set of rear shafts and keeping the old ones for spares is a cheap(er) way to spread out the cost while still maintaining a level of reliability. Downsizing the tires a bit will also prolong the stock axles life.

The 24 spline Rover carrier has me interested, but finding them for less than $800 on the net is proving difficult. After the holidays I'll have to contact several vendors and see what's available. If anyone has any leads, let me know.

This is always the most frustrating part of the build for me, as the money keeps going out the door but no wrenching has occured. I'll be starting on the transmission and transfercase in the next couple of weeks, and then I'll look at dragging the rear axle in for a rebuild.

Wish me luck. Who knows what I'll find...
 

kd_walmsley

Observer
Mike,

Santa sent me a Defender front panel and grill for Christmas so now I just need the hood and I can send you my 109 parts. Let me know if you hear of any good deals on a used Defender hood.

Cheers,

Kevin
 

Alaska Mike

ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
kd_walmsley said:
Mike,

Santa sent me a Defender front panel and grill for Christmas so now I just need the hood and I can send you my 109 parts. Let me know if you hear of any good deals on a used Defender hood.

Cheers,

Kevin

Knowing me, if I found a Defender hood sitting around I'd move heaven and earth trying to find the rest of the Defender.

Let me know when you're ready and we'll do this thing.

Thanks
-Mike
 

Andrew Walcker

Mod Emeritus
Mike, I've got nothing to add except to say that I've really been digging this thread and your thought process for this build. Keep up the faith, you are kicking some serious tail even if it doesn't feel like it! Here's to seeing some progress in 2008! :beer:
 

Alaska Mike

ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
Well, thanks to the efforts of Mercedesrover I found a Disco I, 24 spline case for cheap on eBay, and it's currently on its way. Also on order is the ARB ring gear adapter, as well as bearings, seals, and all sorts of small parts to completely rebuild the axle. Last but not least, we're finalizing the details of getting a set of the 24 spline Seriestrek axle shafts up here.

If the weather doesn't turn, looks like I'll be digging out the Rover chassis to remove the rear axle. Then I'll be cleaning and painting the housing so it looks all pretty like Mercedesrover's 109 build. Shame to put all that money in them just to leave them rusty. Plus, I'd rather work with clean parts where I can see the leaks and other problems.

The front axle will get a similar treatment, but I will probably stay with the stock axle shafts and carrier for now.

The transmission and transfercase are being built right now.

Like the Hanson's Grendel, I'm mainly focusing on getting a solid rig right now. Here and there I'm addressing things that I can improve, but the main thing is to get a reliable platform to build on.
 

Alaska Mike

ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
Well, the rear axle is sitting in the garage right now with the springs, wheels, and shocks still attached. That was the easiest way to get it off without lying in the snow screaming profanities. I have young children. Once the snow melts off, I'll strip it down and start getting it ready for a rebuild.

...And man, does it need a rebuild. The pinion has about 1/2" of play (side to side). I haven't pulled the wheels off to get to the drums, but from the looks of the wheels the seals have seen better days. I think the last owner used about a tube of RTV sealing up the 3rd member to the housing, so this should be interesting. If the gears are worn too bad, worst case scenerio I'll either buy stock 4.70 gears or spring for 4.10s and get some highway performance. My calculated low range was around 75:1, so I think I have the room to play. I considered staying with the Disco 3.54s (compound low at about 57:1), but I'm not sure my engine choice has the grunt to pull 3.54s on the highway with oversize tires. Better to err on the side of caution here. 4.10s would put me at about 66:1, which is a good off-road range for a smaller engine.

I'm a little worried what I may find when I get to the front, but I'll cross that bridge when I'm done burning this one.

Perhaps one day I'll even take some pictures.
 

Alaska Mike

ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
The rear axle begins

RearAxle.jpg

Well I started tearing down the axle and trying to clean it up a bit. When I originally pulled it out, it was a nice shade of tan from the dirt that had adhered to the thick covering of gear oil residue. It was like someone tarred it and then rolled it down a dirt hill. So, the first thing I did (after draining it) was to start scrubbing it down. Four or five hours later it's almost clean and I can touch it most places without having to run for the GoJo. I still need to get some extra-thick areas, but it's much better. I just like working on clean-ish parts if possible. They can get dirty later, but not while I'm trying to rebuild them.

The next task was to start tearing it down. From the goop on the wheels and
outer drums, I wasn't expecting it to be pretty. The brake lines were seized pretty tight, so Vice grips were employed after the wrenches rounded off the fittings. I was planning on replacing the lines, so I'm not going to cry. The drums came off, and it looked like someone had done a thorough job of packing the brake pads with grease. It literally looked intentional. You can see the sheen from the oily pads in the picture. A nice surprise was the new wheel cylinders that were installed.

The next thing to come out was the short side axle shaft. I was pleasantly surprised when I found a new shaft on that side. The long side was the old one (still in good shape), but at least I didn't have two twisted, broken shafts. There was a fair amount of nasty goop in the axle tubes, which I took a little time to clean out. Then I used the old "common screwdriver and hammer" trick to remove the hub nuts, since I don't yet have the hub wrench. Looks like I wasn't the first guy to use that method. I have new hub nuts and washers already, so no loss here. The spindles looked to be in good shape as well, which was another bonus because those things aren't cheap.

I still have yet to remove the 3rd member, and it should be a lot of fun with all of the Blue RTV that was used to seal it up. Once the 3rd member is out, I'll finish cleaning the housing and start painting it. I was thinking lime green with daisies, but I might just go with gloss black over a rust-converting primer.

We'll see if the wife will give me a couple hours tomorrow to continue...
 
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Alaska Mike

ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
Oh, and the springs are shot. The rust has separated them pretty badly, and I'm afraid any attempt to remove that rust might make them sag worse than they already do. Hopefully Wise Owl gets me my new parabolics soon.

The rear of the Rover is sitting on jackstands while the axle sits in the warm garage getting all of the attention. I may take my old M100 trailer axle and bolt it under there with the old springs to get my jackstands back. I knew there was a reason I lugged that axle across a continent.
 

Alaska Mike

ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
Well, the wife has said I need to pick a hobby- skiing or the Rover. Since it's winter and I can't really wrench all that much, the Rover will more or less sit while racing season is going on. When late April rolls around I'll have plenty of time to bust knuckles while the snow melts. Until then, I'll sneak in a day or two here and there to play around.

Tonight I picked up my power steering system. $100 for a Scout II box, pump, hoses, brackets, and the stubbly little steering shaft adapter. Not bad compared to what most places want, and it's cheaper than the core charges if anything needs to be replaced. Most likely I'll just clean them up and install seal kits.

The other day I pulled off the 3rd member and cleaned/painted the housing. Man, that was a lot of RTV (see the picture above). I'll put it back together once I get in the Disco I 3rd member and the Seriestrek axle shafts. All the other parts are here and ready to go. Well, I still need to go find a good axle breather so I can route it up to the engine compartment.

My indecisiveness about the engine knows no bounds. I pretty much have it narrowed down to the GM 2.5L I-4 (Iron Duke) and the Chevy 4.3L V-6. The Iron Duke would be a simple swap, requiring the least effort to pull off. However, it would be a carbureted engine and the I-4 might have a few problems on hills maintaining speed. On the upside, it would be easy to fix and shouldn't ever be a problem for the drivetrain. The 4.3L is a bit more complicated. The wiring and exhaust work would be a challenge, and the stock motor mounts would have to be cut off for installation of the V-6 mounts. A TBI 4.3 would be considerably easier to swap than the MPFI engine, but I would lose out on the diagnostic features of an OBDII engine and a bunch of power. Either engine would pull the Rover through any mountain pass. Finding TBI versions with low miles is a difficult task, and finding ones mated to manual transmissions is also proving difficult. We'll see what turns up over the next couple months.
 

Alaska Mike

ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
Yeah, when we met I was swapping out an Iron Duke on my CJ for a larger engine. At the time it wasn't the power that was the issue, it was the annoying habit it had of cutting out at highway speed. I dumped hundreds of dollars trying to track that one down with carburetors and distributors and all sorts of diagnostic checks- nothing. So, I swapped it and started a whole 'nother chain of failures.

So, while I do have a history with the Iron Duke, it isn't all that great. Then again, others have had great luck with the engine.
 

Alaska Mike

ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
Gas Mileage:
I think the 2.5L and 4.3L are a wash. I'm expecting about 15 to 20 MPG from either one for normal driving.
HP/Torque:
The 4.3L wins here, hands down. I'd never need more power than the 4.3L can put out in stock form (or want it given the strength of my front axle). While this will not be a hardcore wheeler, it will get used off road. I can compensate for the 2.5L's relative lack of get-up-and-go with the planned gearing and recovery gear off road (I actually like winching), so the highway is the main place the 4.3L has the edge.
Off-road Performance:
The 4.3L will be a TBI or MPFI configuration, which again gets the nod. A carb just can't compete on that level, although the simplicity of the carburetor for field repair cannot be discounted. As has been indicated in other threads, a MPFI engine takes a lot of sensors and electronics to repair. I can repair your average carb with bubble gum and bailing wire.
Installation Cost:
On the surface, they seem about the same, but the devil is in the details. Both will be relatively high-mileage engines, although the 2.5L will probably have slightly fewer miles. I would take the stock wiring harness for the engine and modify it for use in the Rover. The engines cost about the same to buy. Engine mounts cost the same, although the 4.3L mounts would require the removal of the stock mounts while the 2.5L mounts bolt on. The 4.3L would require another, larger radiator, while the 2.5L would be able to use the new Series radiator I have sitting in my garage. The 4.3L would probably require replacement of injectors and sensors for reliability, while the 2.5L would probably need the carb rebuilt, plugs, and a cap and rotor. The 4.3L dual exhaust will probably cost more in terms of man hours and supplies as they route it around the narrow frame. It's very likely they can use the stock Rover exhaust as a kind of template for the 2.5L. Overall, I'd have to say that the advantage goes to the Iron Duke here.
Installation Ease:
A Robert Davis 2.5L conversion takes about 6 hours to install, and I'll be using their engine mounts. I expect my 2.5L conversion to take longer, as I am going to replace the entire wiring harness at the same time. A lot of the engineering has already been done, although the custom nature of the transfercase and transmission might add a few hours of messing around. The 2.5L is also physically smaller, which should give me options when it comes time to install accessories under the hood. The 4.3L would require a little work to find the right mounting location for weight, physical size, and cooling considerations. Wiring for the various sensors and indicators would also add a bit of time that wouldn't be as extensive with the 2.5L install. Advantage, 2.5L.
Parts Availability/Sustainability:
We're talking about GM products here, so parts aren't very hard to find in the US. Both engines were used in a variety of platforms, so your average auto parts store at least has them on the books, if not in stock. The 4.3L is a more modern engine, so it will be easier to find parts for and will be supported longer, but that's a slight edge considering the consumable parts are fewer on the 2.5L and many interchange with other engines. We're talking about a rig that will see less than 50,000 miles over the course of 5 years by my current estimates, even considering long trips.
Overall:
While a 4 cylinder "feels" right in a Land Rover and they aren't really designed as "go-fast" machines (braking, suspension, steering...), the 4.3L would make for better highway (mountain pass) and off-road performance. The Iron Duke I had in my CJ could hold highway speeds on the relatively fast and flat Idaho highway between Mountain Home and Boise (until heat or whatever would cause it to buck like a stallion), and my CJ was basically a rolling brick in terms of aerodynamics- much like the Series. An OBDII engine will be much more complex, with the partial offset of having diagnostic capability. It's all pretty much a dead-heat to me right now.

:confused:
 

Alaska Mike

ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
A bucket full of fun.

Today the wife called me at work and said I got something in the mail. Something heavy and in a 5 gallon paint bucket. I knew right then that it could only be the Disco 3rd member. Yay!

Then she started asking questions about how much it cost, which I successfully deflected- for the moment. I must be careful, as I still have a frame, suspension, and bulkhead on the way. Perhaps Jedi mind control is warranted here-

"You see no Land Rover parts. There is no greasy hulk in the garage. Gear oil smells good..."
 

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