Recently Deleted Threads

[Ray Hyland]

Gentlemen,

You will notice that I have deleted two recent threads.

First let me say that I have been largely impressed by the behavior I saw on both threads. I know it is a sensitive topic.

Secondly I would like to remind everyone that ExPo is an international community, and the questions posed by international members (as long as they are posed politely and in the spirit of inquiry and not provocation) are valid and of value. ExPo serves to broaden the international knowledge and understanding of all of us, it is a two-way street.

Third, and most important, the reason I have closed the two threads is because we do have a strict no-politics and no-religion rule on ExPo. While the threads were largely well behaved, they were discussing US gun politics, and we want to adhere to the rules and not be hypocritical.

I expect some flak for this action, but it is what it is.

Thanks

 

[ol' scott]

Ray,

I understand why you did as you did. I wonder though, will this policy ever be reviewed? I'm not sure why the policy is in place (perhaps you could expand on this?) but it seems some things might be more important. Imagine if every forum on the Internet decided to have the same policies. Where would people be able to share and desiminate information. Perhaps
Expo could have a heavily modded area where polite discussions can take place?

It just seems odd to me that members can't discuss guns yet I saw an article that discussed a gun and its carry just recently. There are also numerous Political discussions in various sections of the site, ranging from foreign travel to the availability of diesel engines in the US. Perhaps, again, the reasoning behind the policy could be explained for better understanding.

This is the important part

Of course you could say nothing and I would respect that right. I'd stil visit the forum, ect. I can't, shouldn't, and won't demand an explanation but I do enjoy a good dialogue.

 

[Ray Hyland]

Fair enough and thanks for the post.

First and foremost, we have a very small team. Moderating political and religious discussions takes an incredible amount of time, because people get triggered, they lose their tempers, etc.

ExPo is a site about exploring the wonderful world around us, and acts as a way to meet people, learn from others' experiences, ask questions, and share stories about vehicle-based adventure travel. There are other forums dedicated to politics and/or religion.

Some topics will be relevant to the essence of ExPo and include a questions on politics or religion (ie: asking why it's hard to get diesels in the US, or asking what is the appropriate way to behave or dress when visiting a Buddhist temple, etc) so these discussions are welcomed. When someone starts to get into finger pointing, or making disparaging remarks in any of those discussions, that's when we shut it down.

We do have a sportsman's section, but it exists for people to discuss the technical or practical side of things, it is not here to be an area for political discussion.

And to be completely honest and upfront, I recognize that there is some ambiguity here, and yes, even a bit of a double-standard. If someone posted a link to a page where you could petition your congressman to save a local salmon stream, or save-the-hammers, chances are it would not get shut down. But the reality is that this is such a polarizing topic, that I don't think ExPo is the appropriate place for it.

Thanks

Ray

 

[plainjaneFJC]

Typical. What a joke.

 

[dblosch]

This saddens me greatly. I know I posted early on in at least one of the deleted threads. From what I saw, the behavior was, as you said: impressive.

I appreciate the efforts put forth by all of the moderators here on ExPo. I understand the undertaking, and to call it a full time job is an understatement.

That said, I believe the "rules are rules" attitude taken here is a bit of a cop-out. If we are to delete threads that discuss politics and religion, with out regard to the impressive behavior of the members posting, then this thread should probably be deleted, too. It includes discussions on gun politics, public vs private schools, religion, and even some direct personal attacks on peoples' character.

My point is not that the Newtown thread should be deleted. My point is that the other threads should not have been. An argument for "the greater good" or "the lesser of two evils" could be used to justify deleting polarizing threads, but that is an argument that guarantees one side looses ground. Continuing to make decisions based on that ensures one day there will be no ground left to lose.

That the moderator who deleted the threads recognizes the double standard, indicates to me that ground is already being lost.

Again, I'd like to express the utmost respect for the moderators of our community.

Dan

 

[Dave Bennett]

What I have a problem with is that despite serious attempts to keep on topic and maintain civil discourse, the majority is silenced in favor of a vocal minority of "international" members. Again.

.02

 

[762X39]

Thanks for the work you do and for being willing to take the flak for it. I have no interest in discussing religion or politics when I surf this site (I am sure there are lots of sites that cater to this).

 

[Dave Bennett]

Secondly I would like to remind everyone that ExPo is an international community, and the questions posed by international members (as long as they are posed politely and in the spirit of inquiry and not provocation) are valid and of value. ExPo serves to broaden the international knowledge and understanding of all of us, it is a two-way street.

Third, and most important, the reason I have closed the two threads is because we do have a strict no-politics and no-religion rule on ExPo. While the threads were largely well behaved, they were discussing US gun politics, and we want to adhere to the rules and not be hypocritical.

Then why not delete the international posters derailing the threads and INSISTING on making it political? You guys have it backwards my friend. Seems the "political" label is a bit overused around here IMO, those threads were about activism and awareness that affects ALL of us shooters/sportsmen/enthusiasts here in the US who enjoy this stuff.

Activism and education on land use issues or the environment (and all of their resultant political thread drifts) are NOT treated the same way as the GUN issues are here. And I have to say our discussions and posts here have been MUCH more civil that say oh, the Canyonlands thread.

 

[Dave Bennett]

I have no interest in discussing religion or politics when I surf this site (I am sure there are lots of sites that cater to this).

Neither of those were being discussed by anyone other than the international posters who insisted on derailing the thread by bleeding their political views all over a subject they don't understand. And I stated point blank that this was not the place to make them understand or argue and they posted anyway.

 

[Ray Hyland]

Dave it was an internal decision, made by folks who live right here in the USA. The decision was not taken because of any international input on the thread, but I did use my post to remind everyone that this is an international forum, due to some of the comments I was seeing.

Due to recent events you know why we are treating land use issues differently than gun issues. I make no apology for it.

You are a good friend, and you know I respect your opinions, but at this time I believe this is the right decision.

 

[teotwaki]

---snip----

It just seems odd to me that members can't discuss guns yet I saw an article that discussed a gun and its carry just recently.

--------snip-----.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/92078-New-series-Overlanders-Checklist

Given the illegality of bringing guns from the US into other countries should this thread be cleaned up or deleted because of Expo being an international community?

 

[Christian P.]

Dave,

I stayed out of these discussions because, as someone else mentioned, I am still technically Canadian and can't vote here, so I suppose this is not my decision ultimately.

But the problem I have as an owner/member of the forum is that these threads are ultimately very political and this topic especially is hyper sensitive.
In this case, you were encouraging people to support one side of the debate, assuming everyone here has the same position.

I totally respect your ideology but it is unfair for the other portion.
I suppose they could come here and also post a thread about joining an anti-guns group, but I don't think that would get us very far.

Sorry again for this, I hope everyone understands.

ol'scott

Yes I agree we should revise these rules from time to time. We have discussed in the past having perhaps a Fireside section that would be more open to these kind of discussions, but also more exclusive. For instance, members would have to have a certain numbers of posts before being allowed to that section. Maybe that is something we can discuss again.

we always welcome suggestions and ideas on that matter, please feel free to post or send me a pm.

thank you

 

[plainjaneFJC]

"For all hunting, fishing, and gun carry topics" That is the heading in this section of the forum. Maybe it could be amended to read " For all hunting, fishing, and gun carry topics EXCEPT those that may offend or differ with the views of someone that may click on your thread."

 

[dblosch]

I totally respect your ideology but it is unfair for the other portion.

Deleting these threads has nothing to do with "fairness." We have already established that there is a double standard at play here.

To say TacoDoc can't create a post supporting activism because it's "not fair" to those who don't want his activism, is short sighted at best. TacoDoc posted a link to a different website, which many of us appreciated. His post made it easy for us to take part in our American system of government. That the "other side" wanted to bring the debate into that thread in particular, should not punish the efforts of those on "this side," who were simply passing along information pertinent to that subsection of our community. Why have a sportsman's section if sportsmen can't discuss the current goings on with regard to gun ownership???

To say gun owners can't wholeheartedly support gun ownership in the gun owners section (Sportsman section), can only be equated to our ExPo community moderators deleting all references to having a "Merry Christmas," as Christmas is in fact, a religious holiday.

TacoDoc and I have never met, but we agree on a number of things. Clearly, he is pretty vocal about these issues, while I tend to be reserved. I try to meter myself. That his comments here have received two direct replies from moderators while mine has warranted none screams of moderators picking at low-hanging fruit. Obviously, I mean no offense to Dave, I just wish the moderators would take the time to address the finer points here. That is to say, deleting a whole thread to avoid stepping on people's toes regarding a HIGHLY polarizing issue, is the same as using a sword to perform brain surgery.

If we are to successfully navigate these issues as a community an exacting delicacy is required, but the tools used here were not up to the task.

Dan

 

[grizzlyj]

Hi folks

I didn't see what was posted in one of the deleted threads after the last post I made.

I am interested in why the USA does what it does with this subject. This seems to be a mainly USA forum so seems reasonable to ask. Nothing wrong with asking?

Maybe there is.

I've asked in three or four different places for guidance as to wether what I've previously posted was OK, or why others posts went totally against forum rules but were untouched. No answer, so I'm none the wiser But with one thread closing a while back, soon followed by a banner thread from the founder saying look everyone you need a 1911 to travel in the USA seems to be poking the argument with a big stick? Good luck Mods



Sometimes people seem to think Expo is only a USA forum. Maybe it should be?

Using the same argument about the local gun show thread being moved, should the Sportsman section be open to all? Maybe access permitted to those with a USA ISDN address (and having passed an intensive pro gun questionaire ) only, different sign in required? Tacodoc as Mod

I get the message though.