Blue Sea ACR Wiring Question
- Thread starter Scott B.
- Start date
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
What is the max amp draw of the motor on the winch?
Personally, I'm a huge fan of welding cable, with massive crimped lugs on the ends. It's very flexible, it has a really tough insulation (resists abrasion).
Plus, any welding supply shop can cut it to length and crimp on whatever lugs you need.
Look here to see what size you need to handle whatever amps your particular winch can draw:
http://www.wesbellwireandcable.com/Welding.html
Just to illustrate a point about wire size for high amps...500 MCM is roughly 3/4" diameter of copper. You use a sawsall to cut it as if it were a solid copper bar. A 2' length makes a deadly billy club. It's heavy as sin.
Personally, I'm a huge fan of welding cable, with massive crimped lugs on the ends. It's very flexible, it has a really tough insulation (resists abrasion).
Plus, any welding supply shop can cut it to length and crimp on whatever lugs you need.
Look here to see what size you need to handle whatever amps your particular winch can draw:
http://www.wesbellwireandcable.com/Welding.html
Just to illustrate a point about wire size for high amps...500 MCM is roughly 3/4" diameter of copper. You use a sawsall to cut it as if it were a solid copper bar. A 2' length makes a deadly billy club. It's heavy as sin.
coolfeet
Mark Keeler
I have a similar question. If I am installing this only for the house battery, do I have only 2 connections to make? When I look at the schematic on page 3, do I connect any of the 4 colored wires?
To enable Start Isolation:
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]• Connect the brown wire (ISOLATION #1) from the harness to the terminal or wire running from the start key switch to the starter solenoid. Make this connection through a 2 Amp in-line fuse. This connection can be made at the start key switch or at the starter solenoid, but must be to the line that is positive only when cranking the engine. as shown below.
[/FONT][/FONT]
DiploStrat
Expedition Leader
There are three wires required for basic, automatic operation:
-- A big moosey cable from the positive terminal of your starter battery to one of the big terminals on the ACR.
-- Another big moosey cable from the other big terminal of the ACR to the positive terminal of your camper battery.
-- You also need to connect the ground wire from the ACR to a ground.
That's it.
But, read the instructions: http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/990180180.pdf The ACR comes with a most useful switch which allows force combine and force separate, in addition to automatic operation.
Finally, as noted in #35, above, read the rest of the instructions to see if you require or want Start Isolation. Since your vehicle probably does not have two engines, you probably won't need Engine Isolation.
Blue Sea 7650 Add a battery --more questions
Help ! I'm a fish outta water !-- I too am right in the midst of trying to hook up one of these in my first gen. LWB Montero.
I have a Engel 45qt fridge mounted where the rear seat area was, an Optima D31m 900 CCA battery right next to it , the Blue Sea ACR and Dual circuit plus battery switch next to that, a 5000 lbs. winch at the back bumper and a 12000 lbs. winch at the front. My questions are, what fuse size and where ?, and what wire size? for the mains? and the ACRs control wires? Do I really need Bus bars for all these connections ?
The highest amperage shown on the winch manuals are 325A. The fridge is 10A. I will have a separate 6 circuit Blue Sea fuse box for the house circuit lights, computer, etc.
This is a lot of expense and complexity for cold Beer !
George
Help ! I'm a fish outta water !-- I too am right in the midst of trying to hook up one of these in my first gen. LWB Montero.
I have a Engel 45qt fridge mounted where the rear seat area was, an Optima D31m 900 CCA battery right next to it , the Blue Sea ACR and Dual circuit plus battery switch next to that, a 5000 lbs. winch at the back bumper and a 12000 lbs. winch at the front. My questions are, what fuse size and where ?, and what wire size? for the mains? and the ACRs control wires? Do I really need Bus bars for all these connections ?
The highest amperage shown on the winch manuals are 325A. The fridge is 10A. I will have a separate 6 circuit Blue Sea fuse box for the house circuit lights, computer, etc.
This is a lot of expense and complexity for cold Beer !
George
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
325a sounds about right for the "full locked rotor" amps on the big winch, but sounds about 2.5 times too much for the small one. I'd check the manual on that winch again.
Going by the link I posted above (two years ago) for welding cable, you'd need 4/0 for the front to handle the full locked rotor amps. I doubt you'll ever actually load that winch up enough that it stalls from the load though, so I would say you could get by with 3/0. Your choice. Go with the 4/0 if you think you actually will load it until it stalls.
For the rear winch (and rear mounted aux battery), you could almost certainly get by with #1 (1 AWG which is not the same as 1 ought or 1/0), possibly even #2 (which is smaller than #1). Check the small winch manual. Either one will also be big enough to charge the battery from the alternator unless you've got some super-alternator.
Fuses protect the wire, so you size the fuse for the wire. You always place the fuse at the power source end of the wire.
For the welding cable I'd use ANL fuses:
http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-350-Fuse/dp/B000N9NTTW
4/0 - 300a (technically, but you could safely use a 350a)
3/0 - 250a
#1 - 150a
#2 - 125a
For the wire from engine battery to front winch - fuse at battery end of wire.
For the wire from engine battery to aux battery/rear winch - fuse at both batteries (two power sources - either could fry the wire if there was a short).
The ACR really should be under the hood, but I don't suppose it will hurt anything being near the rear battery .
So...
Engine battery -> fuse -> wire -> ACR -> short wire -> fuse -> rear battery
Then you run another wire (same size wire) from the rear battery fuse to the rear winch. So there will actually be two wires connected to the rear battery fuse - one to the front battery, one to the rear winch.
To tap off the rear battery for the fuse block, you size the wire to handle the entire load of the fuse block. Say 3 x 20a fuses (#12 wire), and 3 x 10a fuses (#14 wire) in the fuse block. So 90a total. So to *feed* the fuse block, that would be a #4 wire with a 100a fuse to protect it at the battery end of the wire. But you will probably never actually USE the full 100a, so I'd say you would be fine with #6 and an 80a fuse.
So, rear battery -> 100a (or 80a) fuse -> #4 (or #6) wire -> fuse block.
From the fuse block to the aux loads, again you size the wire for the load, and the fuse to protect the wire. Personally, at that point I'd just turn into a lazy bastard and use #12 wire and 20a fuses for all the aux circuits...
...except for an inverter. A 300w inverter will draw 28.5a at its shutdown voltage of 10.5v - so you'd need #10 wire and a 30a fuse for that circuit.
Any inverter bigger than 300w should go directly to the aux battery with its own wire and fuse.
For the control wire to the ACR - that will be a very low amperage circuit. Probably only around 1a or less. Hell any cheesy wire and fuse would work. Being a lazy bastard, I'd just use the #12 wire and 20a fuses I used for the aux fuse block circuits, but you would fine using #14 and a 15a fuse.
Going by the link I posted above (two years ago) for welding cable, you'd need 4/0 for the front to handle the full locked rotor amps. I doubt you'll ever actually load that winch up enough that it stalls from the load though, so I would say you could get by with 3/0. Your choice. Go with the 4/0 if you think you actually will load it until it stalls.
For the rear winch (and rear mounted aux battery), you could almost certainly get by with #1 (1 AWG which is not the same as 1 ought or 1/0), possibly even #2 (which is smaller than #1). Check the small winch manual. Either one will also be big enough to charge the battery from the alternator unless you've got some super-alternator.
Fuses protect the wire, so you size the fuse for the wire. You always place the fuse at the power source end of the wire.
For the welding cable I'd use ANL fuses:
http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-350-Fuse/dp/B000N9NTTW
4/0 - 300a (technically, but you could safely use a 350a)
3/0 - 250a
#1 - 150a
#2 - 125a
For the wire from engine battery to front winch - fuse at battery end of wire.
For the wire from engine battery to aux battery/rear winch - fuse at both batteries (two power sources - either could fry the wire if there was a short).
The ACR really should be under the hood, but I don't suppose it will hurt anything being near the rear battery .
So...
Engine battery -> fuse -> wire -> ACR -> short wire -> fuse -> rear battery
Then you run another wire (same size wire) from the rear battery fuse to the rear winch. So there will actually be two wires connected to the rear battery fuse - one to the front battery, one to the rear winch.
To tap off the rear battery for the fuse block, you size the wire to handle the entire load of the fuse block. Say 3 x 20a fuses (#12 wire), and 3 x 10a fuses (#14 wire) in the fuse block. So 90a total. So to *feed* the fuse block, that would be a #4 wire with a 100a fuse to protect it at the battery end of the wire. But you will probably never actually USE the full 100a, so I'd say you would be fine with #6 and an 80a fuse.
So, rear battery -> 100a (or 80a) fuse -> #4 (or #6) wire -> fuse block.
From the fuse block to the aux loads, again you size the wire for the load, and the fuse to protect the wire. Personally, at that point I'd just turn into a lazy bastard and use #12 wire and 20a fuses for all the aux circuits...
...except for an inverter. A 300w inverter will draw 28.5a at its shutdown voltage of 10.5v - so you'd need #10 wire and a 30a fuse for that circuit.
Any inverter bigger than 300w should go directly to the aux battery with its own wire and fuse.
For the control wire to the ACR - that will be a very low amperage circuit. Probably only around 1a or less. Hell any cheesy wire and fuse would work. Being a lazy bastard, I'd just use the #12 wire and 20a fuses I used for the aux fuse block circuits, but you would fine using #14 and a 15a fuse.
The 7650 is the add-a battery kit right?
There are several ways it can be wired, but the wire runs from the ACR to the batteries can be sized to just your alternator output. The ACR can only handle 120 amps anyway.
Now the wire runs from your switch to your batteries needs to be sized/fused to your max loads. So in a self jump situation, they might be several hundred amps for a few seconds.
Look at the size of thee main wire to your starter, and the main wire to your winch. While they are theoretically undersized, the OEM manufactuurers feel it's sufficient and that can give you an idea of the size wire you should use. 1/0 is big and expensive wire and almost always sufficient. 1 gauge is likely OK too except in some theoretical prolonged winching operation.
It would seem to me that ACR and switch should be under the hood and closer to your primary battery and alternator.That will be easier. It will work wherever you put it, but you will need to be super careful fusing the large lead that crosses the firewall on both ends, because it could potentially be hot from either direction like on the "combined" setting on your switch.
Fusing at the hot end is super important, and you fuse according to the wire size as the fuse is there to protect the wire, not the load.
From the ACR ground, that wire needs to be fused at the ACR. Its a low current thing-I used a 12 ga fuse holder with a 5A fuse. Then both battery grounds , a new chassis ground and the ACR ground to the bus bar.
A ground bus is not absolutely needed but it does make the install easier, and would be especially desirable if your battery and switch are inside the truck.
There are several ways it can be wired, but the wire runs from the ACR to the batteries can be sized to just your alternator output. The ACR can only handle 120 amps anyway.
Now the wire runs from your switch to your batteries needs to be sized/fused to your max loads. So in a self jump situation, they might be several hundred amps for a few seconds.
Look at the size of thee main wire to your starter, and the main wire to your winch. While they are theoretically undersized, the OEM manufactuurers feel it's sufficient and that can give you an idea of the size wire you should use. 1/0 is big and expensive wire and almost always sufficient. 1 gauge is likely OK too except in some theoretical prolonged winching operation.
It would seem to me that ACR and switch should be under the hood and closer to your primary battery and alternator.That will be easier. It will work wherever you put it, but you will need to be super careful fusing the large lead that crosses the firewall on both ends, because it could potentially be hot from either direction like on the "combined" setting on your switch.
Fusing at the hot end is super important, and you fuse according to the wire size as the fuse is there to protect the wire, not the load.
From the ACR ground, that wire needs to be fused at the ACR. Its a low current thing-I used a 12 ga fuse holder with a 5A fuse. Then both battery grounds , a new chassis ground and the ACR ground to the bus bar.
A ground bus is not absolutely needed but it does make the install easier, and would be especially desirable if your battery and switch are inside the truck.
Blue Sea 7650 Add a battery --more questions
Big Thank You to DWH and Andrew P for taking the time to help me with my Blue Sea adventure!! No one near my location seems to have a clue as to what I'm up to so far. It sure is comforting to have people in the know to help.
I will copy your advice down and go over it line by line until I understand it better.
I forgot to add that when parked, camping, for a period of time, and trail riding my motorcycle, I plan on recharging the house battery with the 12V output of a Honda 1000 W Generator. I think the output is 8 amps. A lot of my camping is remote trail areas in Michigan that are heavily wooded and not conducive to Solar, although if I ever can get this ancient rig all the way out west to the desert (and back!!), I could also add Solar then, Right? Anyway the generator needs to feed in some where and not upset things, any thoughts on this?
It sounds like really the only choice for fusing the big stuff are ANL type fuses. My local supply for them and the holders is West Marine. I'm sure Blue Sea is good quality but at $20 a fuse and almost $50 for each holder I was wondering if using parts from VTE Warehouse would be safe and adequate?? Any thoughts on this?
I have 2/0 and # 4 Welding cable on hand, would that be alright? The winches came with what there calling circuit breakers, small multiple metal cans linked together with a short bus bar, does that help?
As far as the ACR location, It could go up front, and actually free up valuable space near the rear house battery. But I don't know how the plastic ACR would like the under hood temperatures?? Any thoughts on that?
George
Big Thank You to DWH and Andrew P for taking the time to help me with my Blue Sea adventure!! No one near my location seems to have a clue as to what I'm up to so far. It sure is comforting to have people in the know to help.
I will copy your advice down and go over it line by line until I understand it better.
I forgot to add that when parked, camping, for a period of time, and trail riding my motorcycle, I plan on recharging the house battery with the 12V output of a Honda 1000 W Generator. I think the output is 8 amps. A lot of my camping is remote trail areas in Michigan that are heavily wooded and not conducive to Solar, although if I ever can get this ancient rig all the way out west to the desert (and back!!), I could also add Solar then, Right? Anyway the generator needs to feed in some where and not upset things, any thoughts on this?
It sounds like really the only choice for fusing the big stuff are ANL type fuses. My local supply for them and the holders is West Marine. I'm sure Blue Sea is good quality but at $20 a fuse and almost $50 for each holder I was wondering if using parts from VTE Warehouse would be safe and adequate?? Any thoughts on this?
I have 2/0 and # 4 Welding cable on hand, would that be alright? The winches came with what there calling circuit breakers, small multiple metal cans linked together with a short bus bar, does that help?
As far as the ACR location, It could go up front, and actually free up valuable space near the rear house battery. But I don't know how the plastic ACR would like the under hood temperatures?? Any thoughts on that?
George
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
The problem there, is that the 12v output on the Honda (and pretty much every generator that has a 12v output) is unregulated. It's good for bulk charging, but it can push the voltage of the battery up high and hold it there too long, and end up overcharging the battery. You are way better off to get a decent 3 stage charger and just plug it into the generator's 120v outlet. Something like this would do a much better job and not stress the genny at all or overcharge the battery:
http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SC-1200A-CA-SpeedCharge-Maintainer/dp/B000BQSIWK/ref=pd_ybh_7
Or, the bigger 15a unit would be fine as well.
I bought one of these last year and it runs fine from an 800w 2-stroke genny from Harbor Freight:
http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-BC1509-Automatic-Battery-Charger/dp/B001U04MSU/ref=pd_ybh_25
It's a bit big and clunky though, and only has the battery clamps, so it stays in the garage. In fact, I like it enough that earlier today I ordered the smaller one to toss in the truck to carry along as a backup. The smaller one has both the battery clamps and a cig plug and I'll be able to swap them out for whichever I need:
http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-BC6809-Automatic-Battery-Charger/dp/B001U04MPS/ref=pd_ybh_4
Also, if the Honda you have is an inverter type, then with the genny in economy mode, as the battery gets full and the charger backs off, the gen should throttle down.
Yea, no worries it's easy. Just the solar panel to the solar charge controller to the battery. Simple.
A fuse is a fuse. As long as Murphy doesn't drop by, you'll never actually need it anyway. The VTE stuff will be fine.
Run whatcha brung. It will be fine for charging the second battery for sure. Whether it's enough for the winches you'll find out when you use them and blow the fuse.
I'm guessing those are for the winch solenoids. Protects the winch, doesn't protect the wire that feeds the winch.
It's designed to handle engine compartment mounting.
To dwh-Blue Sea-7650-Add A Battery
dwh, Sorry to keep bothering you. I've spent the whole day reading your advice, measuring, figuring, procrastinating, frustrating on this installation, nothing got done. So I'm going to start over now, with more accurate information and more detail. Please have patience, I'm an old guy still trying to do it. All my older vehicles had PTO winches and no refrigeration, simple electrical systems.
Anyway here are the details: Front winch 12,000#--320 A
Rear winch 5,000#--296A
Distances- From rear battery to rear winch.............7.5'
" rear battery to master switch ........2'
" rear battery to ACR up front..........10'
" rear battery to front battery...........9'
" front battery to ACR......................1'
" front battery to front winch............5'
Alternator-75A
I have #2/0 and #2 welder cable on hand but, what really is the correct cable sizes and fuses needed for the above distances ? I'll buy what ever is right.
The Blue Sea schematic shows fuses between the ACR and both front and rear batteries, what wire size and fuses should be there?
It shows no fuses coming out of either battery going to the master switch, shouldn't there be fuses there at the batteries ? what size would those be? I don't ever expect to have to use these winches or to stall out the front winch, but maybe the back one might til I double block it? I travel alone in some pretty remote areas, the winches are kind of an insurance policy, I don't need "adventures" like in my younger days.
I think we covered the wire and fuse size going to the Accessories fuse box.
Do I need to string a separate ground cable to bus bars from the rear and front batteries? If so, I suppose it would be the same gage as the biggest Positive cables ?
Do my winches pick up there power from the down stream side of the main fuses?
The Blue Sea schematic shows a heading "Engines with separate alternators and starter wires" Am I supposed to make changes to alternator wiring also?
Hopefully that does it!! Thank You,
George
dwh, Sorry to keep bothering you. I've spent the whole day reading your advice, measuring, figuring, procrastinating, frustrating on this installation, nothing got done. So I'm going to start over now, with more accurate information and more detail. Please have patience, I'm an old guy still trying to do it. All my older vehicles had PTO winches and no refrigeration, simple electrical systems.
Anyway here are the details: Front winch 12,000#--320 A
Rear winch 5,000#--296A
Distances- From rear battery to rear winch.............7.5'
" rear battery to master switch ........2'
" rear battery to ACR up front..........10'
" rear battery to front battery...........9'
" front battery to ACR......................1'
" front battery to front winch............5'
Alternator-75A
I have #2/0 and #2 welder cable on hand but, what really is the correct cable sizes and fuses needed for the above distances ? I'll buy what ever is right.
The Blue Sea schematic shows fuses between the ACR and both front and rear batteries, what wire size and fuses should be there?
It shows no fuses coming out of either battery going to the master switch, shouldn't there be fuses there at the batteries ? what size would those be? I don't ever expect to have to use these winches or to stall out the front winch, but maybe the back one might til I double block it? I travel alone in some pretty remote areas, the winches are kind of an insurance policy, I don't need "adventures" like in my younger days.
I think we covered the wire and fuse size going to the Accessories fuse box.
Do I need to string a separate ground cable to bus bars from the rear and front batteries? If so, I suppose it would be the same gage as the biggest Positive cables ?
Do my winches pick up there power from the down stream side of the main fuses?
The Blue Sea schematic shows a heading "Engines with separate alternators and starter wires" Am I supposed to make changes to alternator wiring also?
Hopefully that does it!! Thank You,
George
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
No worries. Happy to do it - when I'm around. When I'm not, I just won't answer.
Wow, that rear winch is torquier than I thought. Must be geared to run pretty fast.
You'll read a lot on the net about compensating for voltage drop by upsizing wire. Generally, I just ignore that. It can be important for some things, such as an inverter, or squeezing out every possible watt from a solar setup, but for most vehicular uses, doesn't much matter.
So let's just ignore distance and focus on sizing the wire for the loads.
I'm going to use a different welding cable wire sizing chart than the one I linked to two years ago. This one's from Lincoln Electric and I like it because it takes into account duty cycle. If you look at your winch manuals, they might mention duty cycle as well, or they might just refer to use time vs. cooling off time, which is the same thing.
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-u...ges/selecting-proper-size-welding-cables.aspx
So, first of all, both winches are approximately 300a full load (I'm assuming those are full locked, or stalled numbers, though you didn't say if they are or not.)
Looking at the chart, we see that for a loop of 50' or less (that's round trip, so 25' or less one way distance) 2/0 welding cable can handle up to 500a at 60% duty cycle. 3/0 could handle 400a at 100% duty cycle. The chart also shows that 2/0 could handle 300a on a loop up to 250' at 60% duty cycle.
So yea, if you've got 2/0, then you are fine using it to handle a 300a load over any distance you could possibly have in a vehicle.
Even though the chart doesn't show it, I would not worry about using 2/0 to service a 300a load even at a 100% duty cycle. And your winches are almost certainly not rated for 100% duty cycle anyway.
So use the 2/0.
No problem.
BUT - you'll have to use it for BOTH winches.
Now to protect that wire, you need fuses. You need at least 300a fuses to service the load, but the 2/0 can handle 500a at 60% duty cycle, so you could go to a higher rated fuse - which you need to do for the front winch anyway.
VTE has 300a ANLs and 350a. For over 300a, they recommend going with the hi-amp fuse holder.
I would use two high amp fuse holders, with 350a fuses. One at each battery. That's "proper".
(But really, you COULD save a few bucks and go with something smaller. Anything smaller will still protect the wire. I'm simply a question of whether you will ever load those winches up until they actually stall. Unlikely with the front one, but pretty likely with the rear. So I'd still go with the 350a fuses.
Either 2/0 or #2 could sure as hell handle anything that alternator can produce. Except, that now you say you have #2, when earlier you said you had #4. (Either way, #4 could handle it as well.)
WAIT! WHAT? STOP THE TRAIN!
Master switch? What master switch? (dwh looks at the your original post...)
Oh...crap...didn't notice that the first time.
You mean like a Blue Sea 1, 2, 1+2, Off switch? Big red round thing?
OH CRAP! (again..)
I also just remembered that Blue Sea makes one ACR that can handle 500a (that's the one I was thinking of) and also a different ACR that can handle only 120a (that's the one I forgot about).
Lemme guess...you've got the 120a ACR?
In which case, you can't feed the rear winch *through* that solenoid...
So at this point...we're in a holding pattern. If you have the 500a ACR, then it's easy, if you have the 120a solenoid, things have to be done differently, and I'll have to figure out a schematic for it.
================================================================
Okay, it's Friday night and I'm not doing anything else... It's a hundred and six miles to Chicago, we've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.
What we need are Cave Paintings. Actually, a schematic, which I can whip up pretty quickly, but I need a couple of questions answered.
1. Do you have the 500a ACR, or the 120a ACR?
2. 2/0 and #2, or 2/0 and #4?
Also, you normally don't need both the ACR and the manual switch. It's usually either/or. So...
3. WHY do you have the manual switch if you have the ACR? Do you insist on it for some reason?
I'm around for several hours more tonight.
Blue Sea 7650 Add a battery --more questions
dwh -you still up too? This Blue Sea part number 7650 comes as a kit with the switch and is rated 120A. I thought you knew, sorry.
I have 2/0 and #2 welding cable.
I was just heading to bed unless you want me to stay up?
George
dwh -you still up too? This Blue Sea part number 7650 comes as a kit with the switch and is rated 120A. I thought you knew, sorry.
I have 2/0 and #2 welding cable.
I was just heading to bed unless you want me to stay up?
George