MG Metalworks Van Build
- Thread starter mgmetalworks
- Start date
Betarocker
Adventurer
Why are you set on an Allison? Direct bolt on 48RE can be built stronger for less money, and you don't need an electronics engineering degree to make it work with the CumminGs. Or you can use a Destroked adapter and run a built E4OD with a PCS controller.
mgmetalworks
Explorer
There are a few of reasons why I'm going with an Allison over anything else...
1) 6-speed. Yeah the 68RFE is a six speed and yeah the 6R140 is a six speed but they're both just as expensive. And neither of those transmissions have huge aftermarket parts support, at least when compared to the Allison. I guess you could add the Aisin six speed to the list since it is an option in the newer Ram trucks but availability is pretty slim.
2) Electronics integration. Controllers for the Allison and the 68RFE are similar in what it would take to integrate into the van's electronics but I'd argue that there is more information about working through issues with an Allison than there are for the 68RFE. Very little info about the 6R140 in a swap application from what I've found.
3) Familiarity. My dad has had two trucks with Allisons. Driven hard, loaded to the hilt and taken to task every day. First truck had over 200k when he sold it (and its still going strong for the contractor who bought it). The second truck is just shy of 100k with no problems. I've driven both trucks a ton and I love how they work (I even considered doing a Duramax swap into the van). I also have good working relationships with a couple local shops with a lot of Allison experience. One is a medium/heavy duty truck shop and the other a high performance shop. I know all of zero people who have experience with the 68RFE so I'd have to spend some time going out to find some experts to talk to. Not that I'm against that, if I had more time I'd probably do a lot more of it.
4) Why not? I'm already going over the top with this build, why "settle" for a 4 speed just because its easy? I'm not afraid of the electronics. I work with electronics all day for work. Sure there are a lot of things I don't have all the details about yet but I'll learn. I really like to push myself when it comes to stuff like this.
mgmetalworks
Explorer
In preparation for the engine swap, I've been rearranging my shop and getting ready for a major upgrade to my little workspace. I've decided to put a 2-post lift in the shop even though it will take up quite a bit of room. I'll have to get creative about floor space usage but I think it will be worth having and I'll be able to do quite a bit with it (hopefully I'll get to install some Ujoint conversions with it too).
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I've also tripped over the parts to my CNC plasma/router for a year now and its time to revive that machine (it got damaged while moving my shop). It used to be a 5'x10' monster but in the 4 years I had it running, I cut all of two things longer than 4' and most of the stuff I did was small brackets for car projects. I'm thinking of reconfiguring it to 2' x 4' for space considerations but if I need to cut something longer, I can index the parts in 2' increments. It is a filthy machine to have in a small shop but they are pretty convenient.
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I got something cool for work the other day too... A desktop 3D printer. Now that I've had a chance to use it, I'll definitely be getting one for my own shop. The capability to print parts at home will be an incredible time/money saver on some projects.
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The speed at which you can go from a sketch to a physical part in-hand is amazing (assuming you have a way to put the object in CAD). And cheap too!!! This particular unit is $2199 but there are cheaper alternatives. My previous experiences with $40k rapid prototyping machines haven't produced anything 20X better...I love to watch the evolution of technology!
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I haven't forgotten about the slider hinge. I'll make more progress this weekend. My wife and I have been trying to get out as much as we can with the kids while the weather is still good so having the van torn apart is out of the question.
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Dan (Bluvan) is installing the 2nd (prototype) set of Sienna front mounts in his van this weekend. Once I get a report from him about fitment, I'll be able to lock the final design. I have a couple folks ready to order a set but I'll need at least 5 people in order to make a run. PM me if interested and I'll send you details.
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I've also tripped over the parts to my CNC plasma/router for a year now and its time to revive that machine (it got damaged while moving my shop). It used to be a 5'x10' monster but in the 4 years I had it running, I cut all of two things longer than 4' and most of the stuff I did was small brackets for car projects. I'm thinking of reconfiguring it to 2' x 4' for space considerations but if I need to cut something longer, I can index the parts in 2' increments. It is a filthy machine to have in a small shop but they are pretty convenient.
.
I got something cool for work the other day too... A desktop 3D printer. Now that I've had a chance to use it, I'll definitely be getting one for my own shop. The capability to print parts at home will be an incredible time/money saver on some projects.
.
.
The speed at which you can go from a sketch to a physical part in-hand is amazing (assuming you have a way to put the object in CAD). And cheap too!!! This particular unit is $2199 but there are cheaper alternatives. My previous experiences with $40k rapid prototyping machines haven't produced anything 20X better...I love to watch the evolution of technology!
.
I haven't forgotten about the slider hinge. I'll make more progress this weekend. My wife and I have been trying to get out as much as we can with the kids while the weather is still good so having the van torn apart is out of the question.
.
Dan (Bluvan) is installing the 2nd (prototype) set of Sienna front mounts in his van this weekend. Once I get a report from him about fitment, I'll be able to lock the final design. I have a couple folks ready to order a set but I'll need at least 5 people in order to make a run. PM me if interested and I'll send you details.
Kole
Adventurer
Hey wasn't sure where else to post this. Maybe you know of some people down here in the south who may be interested in some of these Sienna seats. Then you can ship them off some brackets!
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ptd/4068307901.html
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ptd/4068307901.html
NLPRacing
Observer
Is that a good price? I may have to go to the swap meet.
mgmetalworks
Explorer
The last pair I bought was $665 including shipping. Those are a little overpriced.
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dcguillory
Adventurer
$1000 with shipping is the norm now I believe. $800+ is about 200 to high before shipping
mgmetalworks
Explorer
Sometimes it's the little things that are responsible for big progress. I FINALLY found an online source for wiring diagrams and connector pin outs for the 2013 Cummins. Free no less! It has already helped me identify a few things that I'll need to find either new or from a wrecked truck. Pretty awesome the amount of information available at our fingertips!!!
I've been using the 3D printer to make some parts for the super duty mirrors and it has been an awesome tool for this kind of work! Very quick and cheap to make little changes and refine the design. I'm very close to having the most complicated part of that project done. WOO HOO!
I've been using the 3D printer to make some parts for the super duty mirrors and it has been an awesome tool for this kind of work! Very quick and cheap to make little changes and refine the design. I'm very close to having the most complicated part of that project done. WOO HOO!
mgmetalworks
Explorer
Holy Cow!! almost a month gone by with no updates!? wth is wrong with me!?
I have been making progress on the technical side of the Cummins swap. Much of the free time I have these days is spent with my nose buried in wiring diagrams. It doesn't look like the wiring will be super colossally hard. A lot of room for mistakes? Yes.... Impossible? No. There are only 5 wires out of the Cummins ECM (out of ~56 in the C2 harness that integrates with the body) that I don't have a definitive answer for yet. I know what they are and I know, in theory, what they're supposed to do but I don't yet know how incorporate them into the vehicle as a whole. 5 unknowns is better than 56 unknowns though. I can live with 5.
2-post lift is going in within the next couple of weeks so my winter start date for the teardown is still possible. There's really only one thing holding me back right now (besides not having a transmission yet) and that is finding someone to re-flash the ECM. I need to re-flash to the manual transmission software and disable the security key feature. The local RAM truck service department looked at me like I had an alien head when I asked them if they could bench flash an ECM so my search continues for someone to help on that front.
in other news... I so far have three people interested in Sienna seat mounts for the front. I really need 5 to make a go of it. Please PM me if you're interested and I'll send you the details. The install of the 2nd prototype set I made for Bluvan is finished and the learnings have been incorporated into the new design.
I haven't forgotten about the extended slider hinge...I have a working "rough" prototype but now that my shop is a disaster getting ready for the lift install, I don't have a place to work on the van to finish things off. I want to finish that project and the mirrors before tearing apart the van for the engine swap.
I have been making progress on the technical side of the Cummins swap. Much of the free time I have these days is spent with my nose buried in wiring diagrams. It doesn't look like the wiring will be super colossally hard. A lot of room for mistakes? Yes.... Impossible? No. There are only 5 wires out of the Cummins ECM (out of ~56 in the C2 harness that integrates with the body) that I don't have a definitive answer for yet. I know what they are and I know, in theory, what they're supposed to do but I don't yet know how incorporate them into the vehicle as a whole. 5 unknowns is better than 56 unknowns though. I can live with 5.
2-post lift is going in within the next couple of weeks so my winter start date for the teardown is still possible. There's really only one thing holding me back right now (besides not having a transmission yet) and that is finding someone to re-flash the ECM. I need to re-flash to the manual transmission software and disable the security key feature. The local RAM truck service department looked at me like I had an alien head when I asked them if they could bench flash an ECM so my search continues for someone to help on that front.
in other news... I so far have three people interested in Sienna seat mounts for the front. I really need 5 to make a go of it. Please PM me if you're interested and I'll send you the details. The install of the 2nd prototype set I made for Bluvan is finished and the learnings have been incorporated into the new design.
I haven't forgotten about the extended slider hinge...I have a working "rough" prototype but now that my shop is a disaster getting ready for the lift install, I don't have a place to work on the van to finish things off. I want to finish that project and the mirrors before tearing apart the van for the engine swap.
Jeffh555
Observer
I don't know if there's anything useful for you here, but I saw it and it reminded me of this build.
http://hackaday.com/2013/10/21/can-hacking-introductions/
http://hackaday.com/2013/10/21/can-hacking-introductions/
mgmetalworks
Explorer
Thank you for posting. I hadn't seen that particular article but it will be interesting to follow when they post the additional sections.
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There is a good deal of CAN bus sniffing in my future.
mgmetalworks
Explorer
Progress on the engine conversion....
Got a new harness for the Cummins yesterday
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I tried a couple times to get a used harness out of a salvaged truck but the wrecking yards wanted almost as much as the new part and they wouldn't guarantee that they could remove harness without cutting something... The obvious choice was to just bite the bullet and buy a new harness.
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This is the wiring from the C2 connector on the ECM that integrates with the body. I'm about 50% done with my mods here. Most of the garbage I'm stripping out is related to 68RFE auto trans specific wiring. The Ram truck harness has several connections into the body harnesses but I'm going to reroute just about all of those into one bundle that will mate with the Ford van harness and power distribution block. I'm not too far off from being able to start up the engine on an engine stand with just a few hook ups...provided I can bypass the security in the ECM. Still working on a way around that.
Got a new harness for the Cummins yesterday
.
.
I tried a couple times to get a used harness out of a salvaged truck but the wrecking yards wanted almost as much as the new part and they wouldn't guarantee that they could remove harness without cutting something... The obvious choice was to just bite the bullet and buy a new harness.
.
This is the wiring from the C2 connector on the ECM that integrates with the body. I'm about 50% done with my mods here. Most of the garbage I'm stripping out is related to 68RFE auto trans specific wiring. The Ram truck harness has several connections into the body harnesses but I'm going to reroute just about all of those into one bundle that will mate with the Ford van harness and power distribution block. I'm not too far off from being able to start up the engine on an engine stand with just a few hook ups...provided I can bypass the security in the ECM. Still working on a way around that.
mgmetalworks
Explorer
I finally got a CAN interface that works pretty well.
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I did a simple test run of Key in, ignition on, ignition off, ignition on, ignition off, key out and that produced 15,000 data points. Here is a picture of what it looks like
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Working left to right, the first column basically just tells me that the message is of type "received" with an 11 bit identifier (as opposed to "transmitted"...which I'd only see if I were transmitting to the bus from this software). Time is obviously the time stamp of the receipt of transmission. The ID and the fields that follow are the interesting stuff and what needs to be deciphered. Ford is generous enough to hint at how they structure their IDs so narrowing down which ID is which won't be too hard, just time consuming. The data fields after the ID more or less show what state something is in. In other words, for something like an on-off switch, "ON" will have one unique set of hexadecimal numbers and "OFF" will have its own set. The act of switching back and forth will show up in the data stream for that specific ID. Some clever use of a spreadsheet can make relatively simple work of this but the sheer volume of data makes this a time consuming endeavor.
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Ultimately the goal is to map out as many of the IDs and message states as I can so I can work towards eliminating the Ford PCM from the van after my engine swap. A few other ideas come to mind as well but they're a looooong ways off.
Fun huh?!
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I did a simple test run of Key in, ignition on, ignition off, ignition on, ignition off, key out and that produced 15,000 data points. Here is a picture of what it looks like
.
.
Working left to right, the first column basically just tells me that the message is of type "received" with an 11 bit identifier (as opposed to "transmitted"...which I'd only see if I were transmitting to the bus from this software). Time is obviously the time stamp of the receipt of transmission. The ID and the fields that follow are the interesting stuff and what needs to be deciphered. Ford is generous enough to hint at how they structure their IDs so narrowing down which ID is which won't be too hard, just time consuming. The data fields after the ID more or less show what state something is in. In other words, for something like an on-off switch, "ON" will have one unique set of hexadecimal numbers and "OFF" will have its own set. The act of switching back and forth will show up in the data stream for that specific ID. Some clever use of a spreadsheet can make relatively simple work of this but the sheer volume of data makes this a time consuming endeavor.
.
Ultimately the goal is to map out as many of the IDs and message states as I can so I can work towards eliminating the Ford PCM from the van after my engine swap. A few other ideas come to mind as well but they're a looooong ways off.
Fun huh?!