I'm winch dumb, can you help me?

[DaveInDenver]

@MOguy, regarding I4WDTA, I understand your point about certification. What gives weight to a degree from Harvard or a Red Cross first aid or anything else? Basically depends on the stated criteria they use and qualifications, the reputation of the certifiers and ultimately performance of those that hold the piece of paper.

What I know of I4WDTA is that it's about as good as can be expected for the subject based on the pool of certified trainers. They are legitimately knowledgable and the couple I know personally and have taken classes from hold this particular piece of paper along with other relevant degrees, training and certificates (or equivalent expertise gained in the military) in engineering, rigging, EMT, etc. So I think there is value in it even if it's not exactly as rigorous as earning a PhD from Cal Tech.

 

[MOguy]

@MOguy, regarding I4WDTA, I understand your point about certification. What gives weight to a degree from Harvard or a Red Cross first aid or anything else? Basically depends on the stated criteria they use and qualifications, the reputation of the certifiers and ultimately performance of those that hold the piece of paper.

What I know of I4WDTA is that it's about as good as can be expected for the subject based on the pool of certified trainers. They are legitimately knowledgable and the couple I know personally and have taken classes from hold this particular piece of paper along with other relevant degrees, training and certificates (or equivalent expertise gained in the military) in engineering, rigging, EMT, etc. So I think there is value in it even if it's not exactly as rigorous as earning a PhD from Cal Tech.

I wasn't meaning to be condescending.

Usually certification come from some sort of institute or organization that has been somehow validated by something well known and respected.

What was odd was they asked for a curriculum. Usually when you are certified to teach something you use the curriculum from the organization that certified you, not your own.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I wasn't meaning to be condescending.

Usually certification come from some sort of institute or organization that has been somehow validated by something well known and respected.

What was odd was they asked for a curriculum. Usually when you are certified to teach something you use the curriculum from the organization that certified you, not your own.

I didn't think it was condescending, just wondering aloud. A degree from a university, a certification from an organization, etc., what is required to earn the trust, authority and reputation? It had to start somewhere. What would you like to see in a certification for a four wheel drive trainer? It's rhetorical because there are probably a few key skills but what each of us thinks defines an "expert" won't ever be exactly the same.

 

[MOguy]

I didn't think it was condescending, just wondering aloud. A degree from a university, a certification from an organization, etc., what is required to earn the trust, authority and reputation? It had to start somewhere. What would you like to see in a certification for a four wheel drive trainer? It's rhetorical because there are probably a few key skills but what each of us thinks defines an "expert" won't ever be exactly the same.

I went to their Facebook page and it was much more impressive than the webpage. I did email them for information to see if They had any instructors or classes in my area.

 

[Nonimouse]

You can use a roller fairlead with synthetic line, there is just more risk that it can go slack and get caught over or under the bracket supporting the side rollers.
Typically, it isn't a huge issue for most people. It is very important that the rollers be as smooth as possible.

Fair point, but...
If you need that winch for complicated/tight manoeuvring or odd angles then you can easily get into some unpleasant situations. There is a company in the UK (Winch Max ) who sell a roller fairlead for plasma/synthetic rope https://www.winchmax.co.uk/products/wmrss
Note the stainless steel rollers, but especially the curved corners
You folk have a cheap nylon hawse fairlead, readily available in the US, but not over hear. Brilliant, self lubricating and cheap enough to be a service item

By the way, Mr Brennan - it was a pleasure to see that you had set up your Belle View properly, rather than take the option so many do of 'modifying' it . One of my favourite winches and so rare over here.

 

[Nonimouse]

I always knew this but really never though about why. My question is doesn't the friction created by the Hawse fairlead cause heat and possible damage to the line?

Not really. But if you pick up a lot of grit in the line you do get wear. And if the Hawse is cheap aluminium or plastic it can do a lot of damage

 

[Nonimouse]

Who certifies off road trainers?

Interesting question. In the RoW, most western countries require a very high level of training to be qualified as a trainer (not certified - that just means having a certificate for attending the course).
For example City and Guilds ( a UK standard for competence) is recognised in a fair number of countries around the world. I'm a City and Guilds Assessor for a number of things, including 'Off Road Driving'. So when I approve an individuals competence, it is a legally recognised qualification. It will stand up in court - in fact often remove the need for court in some cases. It reduces the cost of insurance and allows for insurance cover in others. City and Guilds is an accredited provider of a standard, underwritten by the UK Government. We have four organisations that do something similar, but not to as high a level.
So certification is simple - qualification is less so. That tends to be the way most countries look at it....

 

[MOguy]

Interesting question. In the RoW, most western countries require a very high level of training to be qualified as a trainer (not certified - that just means having a certificate for attending the course).
For example City and Guilds ( a UK standard for competence) is recognised in a fair number of countries around the world. I'm a City and Guilds Assessor for a number of things, including 'Off Road Driving'. So when I approve an individuals competence, it is a legally recognised qualification. It will stand up in court - in fact often remove the need for court in some cases. It reduces the cost of insurance and allows for insurance cover in others. City and Guilds is an accredited provider of a standard, underwritten by the UK Government. We have four organisations that do something similar, but not to as high a level.
So certification is simple - qualification is less so. That tends to be the way most countries look at it....

Thanks for responding. I did msg Frenchie to get more info about iwdta. I deleted my post here because as I read it my post seemed argumentative, not my intention. I do want information.

The certification I am speaking of is a credential of sorts offered by a recognized expert in that area. Not like a "certificate of completion" but an endorsement saying this person meets our standards and you can trust them.

 

[Nonimouse]

Thanks for responding. I did msg Frenchie to get more info about iwdta. I deleted my post here because as I read it my post seemed argumentative, not my intention. I do want information.

The certification I am speaking of is a credential of sorts offered by a recognized expert in that area. Not like a "certificate of completion" but an endorsement saying this person meets our standards and you can trust them.

If it was me, I would look into who recognised them as being expert, who is backing the endorsement. Main thing being as and when it all goes wrong, does that endorsing agency have the funds/insurance to cover....

 

[MOguy]

If it was me, I would look into who recognised them as being expert, who is backing the endorsement. Main thing being as and when it all goes wrong, does that endorsing agency have the funds/insurance to cover....

I think allot of people over look the things you mention above. If you certify somebody you are responsible for making sure they are worthy of that certification. The organization seems to be respected and the training should be good but training someone is different than certifying them. The training is a big part but if you are certifying them as trainers they have to be certified in the areas they teach plus they need to be certified as trainers. Just because you know and understand something doesn't mean you can teach it. Teaching requires additional skills.

 

[Metcalf]

Fair point, but...
If you need that winch for complicated/tight manoeuvring or odd angles then you can easily get into some unpleasant situations. There is a company in the UK (Winch Max ) who sell a roller fairlead for plasma/synthetic rope https://www.winchmax.co.uk/products/wmrss
Note the stainless steel rollers, but especially the curved corners
You folk have a cheap nylon hawse fairlead, readily available in the US, but not over hear. Brilliant, self lubricating and cheap enough to be a service item

By the way, Mr Brennan - it was a pleasure to see that you had set up your Belle View properly, rather than take the option so many do of 'modifying' it . One of my favourite winches and so rare over here.

If you are pulling at the 45 degree corners with steel cable you are probably going to have the same issues though? I think the roller flairlead is just more limited in what you can do with it generally. That winch max unit is interesting, but I think pulling hard between the rollers could still damage synthetic line by pinching fibers between the action of the rollers.

Personally, I have had zero issues with using a simple aluminum hawse without any moving parts.

 

[Nonimouse]

If you are pulling at the 45 degree corners with steel cable you are probably going to have the same issues though? I think the roller flairlead is just more limited in what you can do with it generally. That winch max unit is interesting, but I think pulling hard between the rollers could still damage synthetic line by pinching fibres between the action of the rollers.

Personally, I have had zero issues with using a simple aluminium hawse without any moving parts.

I would only uses a hawse with synthetic line. Tool grade aluminium or stainless. I do use steel wire though and when I do I swap to a roller fairlead. I use string cored mild steel wire rope for extracting timber and recovery of plant

 

[Nonimouse]

I think allot of people over look the things you mention above. If you certify somebody you are responsible for making sure they are worthy of that certification. The organization seems to be respected and the training should be good but training someone is different than certifying them. The training is a big part but if you are certifying them as trainers they have to be certified in the areas they teach plus they need to be certified as trainers. Just because you know and understand something doesn't mean you can teach it. Teaching requires additional skills.

I live in a 'regulated' country, you live in an unregulated country. Our laws, although based on the same concept split and evolved differently from the 1776 onward. In the UK 'liability' is a much more complex thing. Some things work well, others definitely not so well. Our Health, Safety and Environment legislation is about as tough as it gets....

 

[Nonimouse]

The reason for the organization came about because other then Australia......

History
A group of the 4X4 trainers got together and did not want any government who know nothing about driving a off-highway vehicles to decide what the standards needed to be. We wanted people who had been doing this and knew far more then any government agency, to set the standards. So who were these people? They were people who had been researching for years, experimenting, reading any pertinent information reason for the organization came about because other then Australia, no country state county or cities, in the world had any regulations for controlling this program. Anyone could call themselves a expert, trainer, driver or educator. If a person says that they are a trainer you want to know that you are trainer/educator and have the education in the area of there expertise.

The I4WDTA is to certify that you know what you are doing. They offer training for people requesting to join and new development training for the trainer/educators. through I4WDTA Train the trainers classes.

There are many other things that they have to do other then reading the terrain and tire placement. You have to be able to read and understand people. The questions they ask, the way they ask them, their body language and more. You need to know that when they leave your class that they have solid correct usable information.

Every educator/teacher is given the leeway to use their own ability to teach in a way that works for them. They are not forced into a regimented way to teach. What ever works for them to get the students to understand the proper techniques. It has been shown that if a person is able to be comfortable in their way of doing things, they can do a better job what ever they are doing. That includes the 4X4 driving.


You are probably wondering how I know this? Well I was one of the people who was part the original trainers who worked on developing the origination. I am a retired Emeritus member of the I4WDTA.

I was told to retired when the wife retired. When I got the word I was to retire, it took another year to finish the contracts I had going.

When working I have trained from Fortune 500 corporations, Military, Federal government agencies to Energy companies, International corporations, communications agencies, environmental companies and more down to the individual recreation user.......


You can find the International 4-Wheel Drive Trainers' Association at https://i4wdta.org/
Da Frenchman

Not wanting to dampen your flames, but the UK, then France and Belgium were the first to have recognised civilian instruction for use of a four-wheel drive off tarmac


I'd also hasten (again with wanting to be competitive) , the I4WDTA is not 'international', it's North American (big area yes, but not the world) and it wasn't the first, nor is it the only accredited organisation of it's type to require examinations to be taken by it's instructors. Even Land Rover Experience have gone down that road...
II do think it's a shame that people form the industry don't talk to each other

 

[MOguy]

I live in a 'regulated' country, you live in an unregulated country. Our laws, although based on the same concept split and evolved differently from the 1776 onward. In the UK 'liability' is a much more complex thing. Some things work well, others definitely not so well. Our Health, Safety and Environment legislation is about as tough as it gets....

We are regulated when it comes to many things. When it comes to certifications, licensing and registering things they do have certain meanings and there are certain expectations.

BUT when it comes to this topic, for me anyway, if they are certified what is the standard they have met? Even if the certifications are not based on any recognized "power that be" that is fine but they still should have some sort syllabus, outline, description of what they offer and why it is relevant.

I am not trying to beat anybody down I am just looking for information.