For those that carry Guns and Overlanding

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jadmt

ignore button user
those who want to carry should carry without needing any justification and those who don't want to carry should be allowed to not carry without justification. I am glad I live where the choice is mine and nobody else's, altho if I lived in a place where the choice was made for me I would still make my own choice. I certainly know some people who should not carry and I know people who carry and I am glad they do. I now when I go to states with legalized weed I see more misfits than in states without legalized week. Just got back from Washington and even my liberal wife was like ****** has happened. We have been going to Washington and Oregon for 30+ years and it seems like the last couple years it has gotten out of control. She has never fired a gat and she was like "your packing right" lol.
 

rnArmy

Adventurer
Last winter we briefly lost electricity one evening, so my wife and daughter and I went out for a little walk just to see who else in the area had lost electricity (we're about an hour north of Portland OR in WA). There was snow on the ground, and it was actually kinda pretty outside in the dark. We walked a block to the park where we unfortunately have a bit of a homeless and drug problem in our town, and I will always remember my wife asking/telling me "You are carrying aren't you?". It made her feel safer knowing I was carrying even though we were only just over a block from our house.

Don't bring bug spray to a gun fight. If someone doesn't want to carry then that's fine; don't carry. But don't criticize me for carrying and wanting to protect myself and my family. Or even worse, thinking you can be in a position to decide for me.

And I don't care how big and tough you are (male or female); anyone who has evil intent isn't planning on fighting fair. And even if I outweigh you by 100lbs, if you're a scrawny meth head with a knife, I don't want to get cut/stabbed, and I don't know how effective bug spray is going to be on someone who's high.
 
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Buliwyf

Viking with a Hammer
For the record, I was't advocating bug spray. It was just an option sitting right next to me that was in this case, better.
 

CSG

Explorer
I fear for the foolishness of the victim mindset than anything else. I have little fear living and traveling in America but, unlike some posters who cry Americans are living in fear while living in the country that brought us those fun loving Nazis, well, ignore is a feature on this site and I just used it on someone. :cry:
 

Ovrlnd Rd

Adventurer
And the nice thing about ignore is that they won't even show up when someone is quoting them so you get the other person's comment but not the ignored one's quote. I've only used it on 2 individuals and one was in this thread.
 
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Dalko43

Explorer
I really don't want to hijack this post anymore, so this is my final reply on the subject....

All right, I am being called out for my comments about Americans living in fear. Fair enough. Allow me , then, to try to expand and explain why I say that. Bear in mind a few things before I proceed. First off, I am a retired soldier living in Germany. I grew up in northern Arizona and was very much a part of the “gun culture” during that time. I am a firm believer in the right to bear arms and do not advocate not allowing anyone to carry, whenever, if they so desire. The only caveat to that is that such carry does not endanger others.

Being away from the States and around Europeans has given me the opportunity to look objectively at the US these days. I think that not being so close all the time has allowed me to see things more clearly. I would like to address several aspects of the comments made here and why I respond the way I do…none of this is in any particular order.



So let’s talk about fear.

The point has been brought up by several people that caring a firearm while traveling outdoors is nothing more than a sensible precaution. Like a first aid kit, or fire extinguisher. OK, fair enough as far as it goes. Disregarding the legal requirements to have such items (and no legal requirement for a firearm…hmmm wonder why that is?) because that argument misses the point entirely (for both sides of the argument, I think). So let’s look at how likely it might be that I need a fire extinguisher in my car: going from a Wikipedia article (yea, I know it can’t be taken as gospel, but it is a place to start), it states that in the US (since most of the folks discussing here are US based) from 2003 to 2007, there were 280,000 car fires resulting in 480 deaths (excluding deliberately set fires). OK, so it does happen enough that carrying a fire extinguisher in your car makes sense. Do we need to discuss how often accidents happen, especially in the outdoors, that justifies caring a first aid kit? No? Good. I think we can agree that it makes sense.

My point here is that carrying these two items make sense in that statistically there is a reasonable chance of you needing them. Although you may ever use either item, the chances that you might are reasonably high.

So, on to more murky territory…finding solid information about violent crime attacks on people enjoying the outdoors and wildlife attacks against the same…is very very difficult. Much of what you find (what I could find anyway) is anecdotal. But just about everyone agrees that you are more likely to be injured by falling or some form of accident than by a violent criminal or violent animal. Could it happen? Sure..and it has happened. So the risk is certainly present…but not very high.

And that it what it comes down to for me: the risk assessment. If you leave the fear factor out of it (I’ll get to that, patience) an objective risk assessment would not include the need for a firearm. Need is the word, not desire to have one (always your choice, go for it). So that is why I reject the “sensible precaution” argument. The need to use it for the stated purpose is just too unlikely.



So back to the main topic, fear:

I have said that America, in general terms, lives in a state of fear. I stand by that statement. Fear of strangers (Muslims, illegal immigrants, blacks, whites, other countries, etc). Fear of authority (government, police, etc) fear of apocalypse, judgement, world ruin financially or by other means…. The cynic in me says this is intentional because the government can more eaisly pursue and control the populace if they are in a state of fear. Its Hitler’s move….give the common people an enemy to focus on. But to be fair, that might be my own fears taking control, no?



I see the fear in many different ways. The first and biggest? The election of Mr Trump. (No, I am not going political here…I don’t care where you stand on this issue…every politician and both parties are bad for the country and pursuing their own agendas). I point out Trump, because his message is one of fear. Be afraid of the Media they are lying to you. Be afraid of the democrats because they hate you and this country. Be afraid of strangers (see above). The fact that he was elected, and still has so many who believe in him…fear.

What’s another indicator? Well, every time I go back home or visit some other location in the States, something always sticks out…it’s how empty the neighborhoods are. Parks are under used, Nobody is chatting with neighbors or having a spontaneous grill party. It’s always so eerily empty. People stay in their homes and interact only selectively. You won’t see that anywhere in Europe.

OK, some more? How about stores that provide anti-bacterial hand wash so you don’t get germs from the shopping carts? How about playgrounds that are surrounded by fences? Parents who coddle their children excessively by driving them to and from school? Seriously, the list could go on forever it feels like. There is a general feeling that no-one or nothing can be trusted..you have to take your fate into your own hands…and let’s be truthful about that; living such a life would be exhausting. And that brings us back to the start….feeling the need to carry, even when you are far from others.



This barely scratches the surface, but if you are open minded enough, you may find things here to think about. As for me, I have already spent way too much time on this subject..so I’m bowing out now.



Good luck, and safe travels all.

@LocoCoyote do you live in America? Because the country you are describing doesn't sound at all like the one that I live in.

And for the record, no one here gives a crap about your politics. So why bring personal politics into this thread?


Also, I don't really care if someone decides to carry (legally of course) or not carry and neither should you; it's a personal decision. The beauty of living in a free country is that people can make decisions on their own, within the confines of the law.

Your point that carrying a weapon is statistically unwarranted, is in and of itself an illogical one. The likelihood of a commercial flight conducting an emergency landing is very low too; should airlines thus remove all relevant safety gear (life jackets, oxygen masks, emergency exits) and stop briefing the emergency procedures to passengers?

The likelihood of any number of bad things happening to an individual in this country is very low. But some people choose to be prepared for those occurrences nonetheless because while the likelihood of such are low, the outcomes are potentially very severe. And so long as that preparation isn't breaking the law or violating someone else's rights, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that mindset.
 
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echo7tango

Road tripping, overlanding
those who want to carry should carry without needing any justification ...

But those who carry should be trained, not just on proficiency and accuracy but also on target recognition and acquisition, and what is beyond and nearby the target. I’m not saying that you are not trained. I’m making that point as a reminder to those who choose to have a firearm with them — and that includes me.
 

zimm

Expedition Leader
i love "situational awareness". you can tell when someone reads too may self defense and gun magazines. not a one of you in a restaurant line would notice me sliding an ice pick between 4 and 5, until the ice pick was firmly between 4 and 5, making a nice semi circle.

************** situational awareness... lol... its a thread full of jason borne wannabees, sleeping with one eye open.
 

zimm

Expedition Leader
But those who carry should be trained, not just on proficiency and accuracy but also on target recognition and acquisition, and what is beyond and nearby the target. I’m not saying that you are not trained. I’m making that point as a reminder to those who choose to have a firearm with them — and that includes me.

training... hmmm... the government decides that definition, and thats not quite the meaning of 2a. militia in the 1700's only meant every able bodied white male. any training consisted of standing your ground without ****************, in the face of volley fire. the army was bravery, and the ability to consume vast quantities of beer.
 

zimm

Expedition Leader
oh... and its fear. aint nothing wrong with a little fear. the inability to admit you can have fear, tends to indicate coward.
 

jadmt

ignore button user
But those who carry should be trained, not just on proficiency and accuracy but also on target recognition and acquisition, and what is beyond and nearby the target. I’m not saying that you are not trained. I’m making that point as a reminder to those who choose to have a firearm with them — and that includes me.
I have a fair amount of training, I was a swat officer for 12 years and full time LE for 30. If my wife or daughters were at a mall or some place where a wacked out person decided to open fire I would rather have 20 rednecks carrying than one peacenik handing out flowers regardelss of how trained the peacenik was at handing out flowers. I know there are exceptions, but most people I know that carry full time are usually better shots than many LEOs, me included and I am pretty good at shooting holes in paper. I guess there is the chance that a good guy could get shot by another good guy.
 

zimm

Expedition Leader
I have a fair amount of training, I was a swat officer for 12 years and full time LE for 30. If my wife or daughters were at a mall or some place where a wacked out person decided to open fire I would rather have 20 rednecks carrying than one peacenik handing out flowers regardelss of how trained the peacenik was at handing out flowers. I know there are exceptions, but most people I know that carry full time are usually better shots than many LEOs, me included and I am pretty good at shooting holes in paper. I guess there is the chance that a good guy could get shot by another good guy.

20 red necks? sounds like you presented the choice of dead, or deader. in that case i pick deadest.
 

SigSense

Adventurer
But those who carry should be trained, not just on proficiency and accuracy but also on target recognition and acquisition, and what is beyond and nearby the target. I’m not saying that you are not trained. I’m making that point as a reminder to those who choose to have a firearm with them — and that includes me.

Why should any American get training in order to exercise a right guaranteed under the Constitution? Does anyone have to get training to exercise their 1st Amendment rights? How about getting a license to practice a religion? See what I mean?
 

Buliwyf

Viking with a Hammer
Yep, it's up to us to get trained.

You can't force people into it, because then what counts as ''training'' would have to be quantified. And the evil in our government would make it impossible eventually.
 
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