New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[T-Willy]

The Philosophical Underpinnings that built the Defender- direct quotes from the "Spiritual Leader" of LR

"So I don’t get people coming up to me saying, “Oh, could you make it more retrospective?” I don’t get marketing coming up to me saying, could you do this, could you do that. Because, quite frankly, I don’t take any notice of them. I’m employed as a professional. Design is a separate issue for the brand; I’m the spiritual leader for the brand. I define what that vision is, and my team executes it. It might sound very arrogant…which it is."

View attachment 580033

Is this satire? And, is Kenny G actually the spiritual leader of Land Rover?

 

[DieselRanger]

The Philosophical Underpinnings that built the Defender- direct quotes from the "Spiritual Leader" of LR

When it comes to accessorizing your vehicle- let's readily dismiss one of the most fundamental and enjoyable aspects of owning a 4x4 as evidenced by the incredible market for such accessories-

"I mean, a lot of these things are put on cars to reinforce the visual strength of them. Because actually, the cost of putting those on probably outweighs the [cost to repair any damage], anyway. So they were more of a visual metaphor. And for me, in my sort of modernist approach, that didn’t sit very well with me."


When it comes to style vs substance- style always wins! ....so critical off-road when you are counting on your vehicle to get you back- he literally is saying that design is the most important aspect of the brand- and it's still ugly from the front!

"At Land Rover, we have, over the years, desired to put design at the center of the business. We have developed a culture that has enabled us to do things like the new Defender, things like the Velar, things like the new Evoque or even the original Evoque. Which, before that, didn’t exist......The brand did have a very strong engineering background. And one of the things I was very focused on was, how can we put design at the core of this brand that would enable it to flourish as a consequence?"

*As a bonus, I think it's interesting how he talks about engineering, you know, the actual functionality, in the past tense as something that the brand "did" have strongly, but that he was more focused on seeing how the design could drive the true nature of the vehicle.


In case you doubt for a second that design/style is more important than substance for the new Defender ...looking at you @DieselRanger

"And so, I hear other companies talking about the importance of design, but I don’t always see it in the end result. And you made an interesting point there, where you say there was pressure on you to make it more retrospective? Nobody puts me under pressure. And that’s a great thing."

"So I don’t get people coming up to me saying, “Oh, could you make it more retrospective?” I don’t get marketing coming up to me saying, could you do this, could you do that. Because, quite frankly, I don’t take any notice of them. I’m employed as a professional. Design is a separate issue for the brand; I’m the spiritual leader for the brand. I define what that vision is, and my team executes it. It might sound very arrogant…which it is."

When it comes to the importance of off-road and the roll it should play in designing a vehicle

"The urban environment can be just as treacherous [as off-roading]."......I guess in some ways it can- I've been to downtown Detroit, it was pretty treacherous- sure glad I had plenty of articulation for the pot-holes- ******* could have gotten real otherwise.

Angry Eyes- one of the uglier trends in the Jeep aftermarket world, now included from the factory at LR
"And for me, there’s an honesty about this design, which I suppose comes out particularly in the detailing of the lamps, the front face, the simple geometric forms. There’s a rightness about it, it’s not trying to be something it’s not. When you look at that face, it’s proud, it’s strong, but it’s not trying to be overtly aggressive. It’s got big lamps, it’s got open eyes." ......except those big open eyes have an ugly squint whose very inclusion can only be an attempt to make it look more aggressive.


View attachment 580033

? yeah, they clearly didn't do any engineering at all. In an article where the topic is design, you highlight all of the ways in which the lead designer discusses design. ?

Show me where the Defender's design impairs its function as compared to the previous generations.

You do realize that in automotive engineering, the design and engineering are separate people and functions, and they're always in tension, right? You do realize that Gerry McGovern is a designer and not an engineer, with a degree in automotive design, right? And you realize that a "spiritual director" is not a chief executive officer or a lead automotive engineer, right? And you realize that at the end of the day, the two come together? That's called systems engineering - the management of design and engineering trades and requirements across the components to bring together the whole. Well, unless you're building a Pontiac Aztek, in which case the GM designers were too busy ... doing .... whatever the hell they were doing other than design. And so were the engineers. But I digress.

You should have as much beef with Gerry as with this guy:

NICK ROGERS | JLR Media Newsroom

Nick Rogers was appointed Executive Director, Product Engineering, Jaguar Land Rover as of April 1, 2015. Since then, he has led the engineering team to deliver a host of new Jaguar Land Rover vehicles, including the world’s first all-electric performance SUV; the Jaguar I-PACE, and the...

media.jaguarlandrover.com

As an engineer myself I appreciate when design and function come together, and in general I think the Brits are excellent at this. Aston Martin is the pinnacle of design+function. Ze Germans are too sterile, the Italians have fantastic designs but they build their high end vehicles as mobile art rather than functional beauty, and American design is always decades behind everyone else, preferring function over design.

I think the Defender's design is great. It's not over-wrought or cheesy, it has just enough callbacks to highlight where it came from. But clearly it's the design highlighted in the videos and photos of it driving in Africa on five hundred miles of carefully groomed track, where every rock, grain of sand, river bed feature and flow were clearly very artfully curated and managed to attract attention to its design. ?

 

[DieselRanger]

lol, have you seen the Blazer? You're right, trademark owners can do whatever they want, same as you and I, but that doesn't make it reasonable or honest.

Says Ford, must be a Ford.

Not saying the Blazer or the Impala are great cars. If Ford made that little cart, then it's a Ford. They can call it the Bronco if they want to, it's their trademark.

 

[DieselRanger]

Is this satire? And, is Kenny G actually the spiritual leader of Land Rover?

LOL...1990s...at least the Kids These Days aren't emulating that decade.

He's always been up on the current fashions. You know, as a designer.

 

[EricTyrrell]

Not saying the Blazer or the Impala are great cars. If Ford made that little cart, then it's a Ford. They can call it the Bronco if they want to, it's their trademark.

That's not the point. You don't need to check a reference to see if it's a Ford, or a Bronco. Nearly anyone can tell immediately that it does not share the characteristics that would make it either.

If Porsche manufactured a car identical to a Miata, 370Z, or Supra and slapped the 911 label on it would it be a 911 in all honesty? The answer depends on what you value.

 

[nickw]

The Philosophical Underpinnings that built the Defender- direct quotes from the "Spiritual Leader" of LR

When it comes to accessorizing your vehicle- let's readily dismiss one of the most fundamental and enjoyable aspects of owning a 4x4 as evidenced by the incredible market for such accessories-

"I mean, a lot of these things are put on cars to reinforce the visual strength of them. Because actually, the cost of putting those on probably outweighs the [cost to repair any damage], anyway. So they were more of a visual metaphor. And for me, in my sort of modernist approach, that didn’t sit very well with me."


When it comes to style vs substance- style always wins! ....so critical off-road when you are counting on your vehicle to get you back- he literally is saying that design is the most important aspect of the brand- and it's still ugly from the front!

"At Land Rover, we have, over the years, desired to put design at the center of the business. We have developed a culture that has enabled us to do things like the new Defender, things like the Velar, things like the new Evoque or even the original Evoque. Which, before that, didn’t exist......The brand did have a very strong engineering background. And one of the things I was very focused on was, how can we put design at the core of this brand that would enable it to flourish as a consequence?"

*As a bonus, I think it's interesting how he talks about engineering, you know, the actual functionality, in the past tense as something that the brand "did" have strongly, but that he was more focused on seeing how the design could drive the true nature of the vehicle.


In case you doubt for a second that design/style is more important than substance for the new Defender ...looking at you @DieselRanger

"And so, I hear other companies talking about the importance of design, but I don’t always see it in the end result. And you made an interesting point there, where you say there was pressure on you to make it more retrospective? Nobody puts me under pressure. And that’s a great thing."

"So I don’t get people coming up to me saying, “Oh, could you make it more retrospective?” I don’t get marketing coming up to me saying, could you do this, could you do that. Because, quite frankly, I don’t take any notice of them. I’m employed as a professional. Design is a separate issue for the brand; I’m the spiritual leader for the brand. I define what that vision is, and my team executes it. It might sound very arrogant…which it is."

When it comes to the importance of off-road and the roll it should play in designing a vehicle

"The urban environment can be just as treacherous [as off-roading]."......I guess in some ways it can- I've been to downtown Detroit, it was pretty treacherous- sure glad I had plenty of articulation for the pot-holes- ******* could have gotten real otherwise.

Angry Eyes- one of the uglier trends in the Jeep aftermarket world, now included from the factory at LR
"And for me, there’s an honesty about this design, which I suppose comes out particularly in the detailing of the lamps, the front face, the simple geometric forms. There’s a rightness about it, it’s not trying to be something it’s not. When you look at that face, it’s proud, it’s strong, but it’s not trying to be overtly aggressive. It’s got big lamps, it’s got open eyes." ......except those big open eyes have an ugly squint whose very inclusion can only be an attempt to make it look more aggressive.


View attachment 580033

Where did the quotes come from?

Would you rather have LR design the vehicle so you can farkle the bejesus out of it? I get that you own a Jeep and that's 99% of the fun....isn't for me, I'd prefer to buy a rig that is capable with minimal mods and leave it the &$*# alone. Most of the guys complaining about the cost of the new Defender use their $45k Jeep as a price comparison even though it has $15k worth of crap bolted to it...some it it 'useful', fair, most of it for looks, like the LR dude says....

 

[EricTyrrell]

? yeah, they clearly didn't do any engineering at all. In an article where the topic is design, you highlight all of the ways in which the lead designer discusses design. ?

Show me where the Defender's design impairs its function as compared to the previous generations.

You do realize that in automotive engineering, the design and engineering are separate people and functions, and they're always in tension, right? You do realize that Gerry McGovern is a designer and not an engineer, with a degree in automotive design, right? And you realize that a "spiritual director" is not a chief executive officer or a lead automotive engineer, right? And you realize that at the end of the day, the two come together? That's called systems engineering - the management of design and engineering trades and requirements across the components to bring together the whole. Well, unless you're building a Pontiac Aztek, in which case the GM designers were too busy ... doing .... whatever the hell they were doing other than design. And so were the engineers. But I digress.

You should have as much beef with Gerry as with this guy:

NICK ROGERS | JLR Media Newsroom

Nick Rogers was appointed Executive Director, Product Engineering, Jaguar Land Rover as of April 1, 2015. Since then, he has led the engineering team to deliver a host of new Jaguar Land Rover vehicles, including the world’s first all-electric performance SUV; the Jaguar I-PACE, and the...

media.jaguarlandrover.com

As an engineer myself I appreciate when design and function come together, and in general I think the Brits are excellent at this. Aston Martin is the pinnacle of design+function. Ze Germans are too sterile, the Italians have fantastic designs but they build their high end vehicles as mobile art rather than functional beauty, and American design is always decades behind everyone else, preferring function over design.

I think the Defender's design is great. It's not over-wrought or cheesy, it has just enough callbacks to highlight where it came from. But clearly it's the design highlighted in the videos and photos of it driving in Africa on five hundred miles of carefully groomed track, where every rock, grain of sand, river bed feature and flow were clearly very artfully curated and managed to attract attention to its design. ?

He doesn't just discuss design. In addition to stopping short of declaring himself king of LR, he discusses elevating design to the center of LR's focus. Engineering has been sidelined (also evidenced in other interviews), a complete 360 from the company's origins, and another sign that JLR and classic LR are two completely dissimilar entities. Have you ever seen McGovern off-road? He doesn't, not even for company research. He clearly is more at home collecting art, arranging flowers, and hanging out with Posh Spice, and yet for some reason is placed responsible for designing (what were) off-road focused products. It's no wonder we see friction in nearly every LR forum regarding the new and classic products. The markets, the people, their values, are completely different. JLR would have done us great favor, if in 2003 they had dropped the Land Rover brand and continued with Range Rover. At least then we'd have some sensible defining line between Land Rover communities and Range Rover communities. The Range Rover Defender could have been unleashed without completely confusing the identity of the completely opposite classic. Those that prefer utility and function over form would be able to discuss their issues (greasable vs sealed U-joints) which differ from those that prefer London chic, who could discuss theirs (why is my plastic tread plate peeling off).

 

[EricTyrrell]

Where did the quotes come from?

This one, I believe.

Land Rover’s Spiritual Leader Makes No Apologies for the Design of the New Defender

Retro really isn’t his thing.

gearpatrol.com

I'd prefer to buy a rig that is capable with minimal mods

Like the original Defender and 70 series?

 

[nickw]

LOL...1990s...at least the Kids These Days aren't emulating that decade.

He's always been up on the current fashions. You know, as a designer.

Just wait....did you ever think big ugly shoes and mom jeans would be a thing, EVER? The whole 'norm core' movement is confusing....but it's all context and what you know at the time, I'm sure 20 years from now they'll look at some of the expedition 'builds' on here the same way we looked at the trucks from the 80's (with the big lifts, wide tires, metallic rootbeer paintjobs with crazy graphics and big roll bars with KC lights) and laugh about the ridiculousness of it all.

 

[nickw]

This one, I believe.

Land Rover’s Spiritual Leader Makes No Apologies for the Design of the New Defender

Retro really isn’t his thing.

gearpatrol.com

Like the original Defender and 70 series?

Sure, I'll always have a soft spot for a Defender or 70 series pickup just because that's the era a grew up in and I love the mechanical nature of them, but i'm also not a fatalist and wanna pick the right tool for the right job. None of us live in Botswana or are traveling through the Simpson or Sahara, cool and iconic does not = reasonable for modern life and typical use case.

Truth be told, most would be better off in an older Mercedes Sedan, good fuel mileage, under the radar, plenty of space and has probably explored just as much of Northern Africa as any Land Cruiser/Rover has, plus they are cheap, readily available, easy to drive and comfortable....

 

[EricTyrrell]

Sure, I'll always have a soft spot for a Defender or 70 series pickup just because that's the era a grew up in and I love the mechanical nature of them, but i'm also not a fatalist and wanna pick the right tool for the right job. None of us live in Botswana or are traveling through the Simpson or Sahara, cool and iconic does not = reasonable for modern life and typical use case.

Truth be told, most would be better off in an older Mercedes Sedan, good fuel mileage, under the radar, plenty of space and has probably explored just as much of Northern Africa as any Land Cruiser/Rover has, plus they are cheap, readily available, easy to drive and comfortable....

No. Your premise was that if the vehicle had a utilitarian design, it would need farkle before being useful off-road, which is demonstrably false.

I'd prefer to buy a rig that is capable with minimal mods

I still find this ironic, since as far as I know, every non-base engine Defender, supposedly the pinnacle of off-road capability, will ship from the factory incapable of real-world off-road use without somehow swapping smaller wheels.

 

[nickw]

The Philosophical Underpinnings that built the Defender- direct quotes from the "Spiritual Leader" of LR

When it comes to accessorizing your vehicle- let's readily dismiss one of the most fundamental and enjoyable aspects of owning a 4x4 as evidenced by the incredible market for such accessories-

"I mean, a lot of these things are put on cars to reinforce the visual strength of them. Because actually, the cost of putting those on probably outweighs the [cost to repair any damage], anyway. So they were more of a visual metaphor. And for me, in my sort of modernist approach, that didn’t sit very well with me."


When it comes to style vs substance- style always wins! ....so critical off-road when you are counting on your vehicle to get you back- he literally is saying that design is the most important aspect of the brand- and it's still ugly from the front!

"At Land Rover, we have, over the years, desired to put design at the center of the business. We have developed a culture that has enabled us to do things like the new Defender, things like the Velar, things like the new Evoque or even the original Evoque. Which, before that, didn’t exist......The brand did have a very strong engineering background. And one of the things I was very focused on was, how can we put design at the core of this brand that would enable it to flourish as a consequence?"

*As a bonus, I think it's interesting how he talks about engineering, you know, the actual functionality, in the past tense as something that the brand "did" have strongly, but that he was more focused on seeing how the design could drive the true nature of the vehicle.


In case you doubt for a second that design/style is more important than substance for the new Defender ...looking at you @DieselRanger

"And so, I hear other companies talking about the importance of design, but I don’t always see it in the end result. And you made an interesting point there, where you say there was pressure on you to make it more retrospective? Nobody puts me under pressure. And that’s a great thing."

"So I don’t get people coming up to me saying, “Oh, could you make it more retrospective?” I don’t get marketing coming up to me saying, could you do this, could you do that. Because, quite frankly, I don’t take any notice of them. I’m employed as a professional. Design is a separate issue for the brand; I’m the spiritual leader for the brand. I define what that vision is, and my team executes it. It might sound very arrogant…which it is."

When it comes to the importance of off-road and the roll it should play in designing a vehicle

"The urban environment can be just as treacherous [as off-roading]."......I guess in some ways it can- I've been to downtown Detroit, it was pretty treacherous- sure glad I had plenty of articulation for the pot-holes- ******* could have gotten real otherwise.

Angry Eyes- one of the uglier trends in the Jeep aftermarket world, now included from the factory at LR
"And for me, there’s an honesty about this design, which I suppose comes out particularly in the detailing of the lamps, the front face, the simple geometric forms. There’s a rightness about it, it’s not trying to be something it’s not. When you look at that face, it’s proud, it’s strong, but it’s not trying to be overtly aggressive. It’s got big lamps, it’s got open eyes." ......except those big open eyes have an ugly squint whose very inclusion can only be an attempt to make it look more aggressive.


View attachment 580033

This one, I believe.

Land Rover’s Spiritual Leader Makes No Apologies for the Design of the New Defender

Retro really isn’t his thing.

gearpatrol.com

Like the original Defender and 70 series?

Just read that article, a couple things that really resonated with me:

"But you don’t let that manifest itself in the product to the point that the product looks like a facsimile of something that was created 60-odd years ago. For me, that’s not honest design. That car created 60, 70 years ago was right for its time, but things have moved on."

That is one of my big beefs (I realize it's personal) with some of the older iconic rigs like Jeep that have intentionally NOT updated the rig because it needs to "LOOK" like a Jeep. Not to mention if they kept the old Defender or LC70 for the US market, they'd be doing it for heritage purposes because guys want it to look cool rather than being built for modern times....that is dishonest in its own right. He points it out well by saying:

"And it’s getting that balance, for it not to appear like it’s a caricature…it needs to stand up in its own right"

Modern "expeditions" are road trips to interesting places like Joshua Tree, Moab, NorCal, British Columbia...some light wheeling, some light camping a stop at a cool B&B and a few cool campsites then drive back and forth to work with some MTB rides on the weekends....in comfort and an ounce of style. I see designing a rig for that the most 'honest' things LR could do.

 

[nickw]

No. Your premise was that if the vehicle had a utilitarian design, it would need farkle before being useful off-road, which is demonstrably false.



I still find this ironic, since as far as I know, every non-base engine Defender, supposedly the pinnacle of off-road capability, will ship from the factory incapable of real-world off-road use without somehow swapping smaller wheels.

That wasn't my premise at all, FYI.

Sure, ok, not sure what to say besides define "real world offroad use". Pretty bold statement.

I see the Camel Trophy rig next to your name...what do you actually drive and what is your use case?

 

[EricTyrrell]

That wasn't my premise at all, FYI.

Would you rather have LR design the vehicle so you can farkle the bejesus out of it? ... I'd prefer to buy a rig that is capable with minimal mods

Sure, ok, not sure what to say besides define "real world offroad use". Pretty bold statement.

Real world, as in not a LR demo track devoid of the real dangers present in off-road travel. Most people here know why low-profile tires are not practical for off-road use.

I see the Camel Trophy rig next to your name...what do you actually drive and what is your use case?

F150 & D90. Exploring OR.

 

[EricTyrrell]

Just read that article, a couple things that really resonated with me:

Looking back at that article, which portrays McGovern as a pompous ass, and then checking out the Grenadier site, it strikes me what a difference in attitude and perspective the two companies assume.

The INEOS Grenadier Story: Why We're Building A World Class 4x4

Our vision is to build a stripped back, utilitarian 4x4, engineered to overcome in all conditions. Here is where the inspiration for the Grenadier started.

ineosgrenadier.com

THE BEGINNING
Over a friendly pint at the Grenadier pub in London, car enthusiast and experienced adventurer Jim Ratcliffe, INEOS Chairman, identified a gap in the market for a stripped back, no-nonsense, utilitarian 4x4.

After a thorough assessment and feasibility study, INEOS turned its manufacturing and engineering expertise to building such a vehicle. INEOS Automotive Limited was established and a senior team of experienced automotive experts assembled to bring the vision to reality, with a fresh perspective on 4x4 development and manufacturing.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE VEHICLE SO FAR?
The Grenadier will be an uncompromising 4x4 that works for the world. It will be a no-frills utilitarian vehicle. A working tool for farmers, foresters, explorers and aid workers.

BODY
Classic, rugged boxy design that’s all about function over form. No design for design's sake. Easy to fix. No frills, no fuss. A true utility vehicle.