1986 GMC S-15
- Thread starter Andrew_S
- Start date
Andrew_S
Observer
^ yeah for sure, it rubs everywhere.
Thanks Shaun I really appreciate that. It's tough to get much done in the of progress though when we are so busy getting out.
Well the christmas break was very unproductive as far as progress on the 3.4 goes.
I got my welding set up put back together
We got a ton of snow for this area and I spent 15/17 days doing 10+ hour days in this truck.
Whole sale sports was going out of business, couldn't pass up 40% off guns.
Been talking about buying a nice over under and a .17 for to long.
Topped it off with a leupold 3-9x40 for 50% off as well.
Picked up this windshield washer fluid reservoir and a couple dog dishes for all my nuts and bolts from the 3.4, It's so nice to have a local yard with lots of stock to choose from.
and then we went ice fishing a few times,
I absolutely love this time of year,
and a few more,
our last trip out was so beautiful. We got 5" of snow in a few hours and the fishing was incredible. Landed 8 rainbows all absolute footballs.
Hoping to make some real build progress soon.
No I don't believe so sorry
Yeah I was really surprised to see the leech. From what I understand they hibernate in the mud in the winter time. That fish must have dug it out. They were small fresh water shrimp, no crayfish in that lake. The big one is a dragon fly nymph. It's always interesting to see what they are naturally feeding on.
Thanks Shaun I really appreciate that. It's tough to get much done in the of progress though when we are so busy getting out.
Well the christmas break was very unproductive as far as progress on the 3.4 goes.
I got my welding set up put back together
We got a ton of snow for this area and I spent 15/17 days doing 10+ hour days in this truck.
Whole sale sports was going out of business, couldn't pass up 40% off guns.
Been talking about buying a nice over under and a .17 for to long.
Topped it off with a leupold 3-9x40 for 50% off as well.
Picked up this windshield washer fluid reservoir and a couple dog dishes for all my nuts and bolts from the 3.4, It's so nice to have a local yard with lots of stock to choose from.
and then we went ice fishing a few times,
I absolutely love this time of year,
and a few more,
our last trip out was so beautiful. We got 5" of snow in a few hours and the fishing was incredible. Landed 8 rainbows all absolute footballs.
Hoping to make some real build progress soon.
B
BPD53
Guest
Please don't make fun of me, but I've never seen anyone build a fire on top of ice before.
In WV we don't get snow and ice like that.
In WV we don't get snow and ice like that.
1stDeuce
Explorer
Why you carrying the .17 ice fishing? I didn't think the Rainbows were that big, but one of those holes looks like you expect to pull a 250lb tuna out of it!! 
We have zero snow still here in SW CO. Wife and I have been re-thinking our play to spend the middle of June in your area... Might still be too much snow based on how much the northern rockies are getting so far this winter... what you think?
We have zero snow still here in SW CO. Wife and I have been re-thinking our play to spend the middle of June in your area... Might still be too much snow based on how much the northern rockies are getting so far this winter... what you think?
Andrew_S
Observer
Why you carrying the .17 ice fishing? I didn't think the Rainbows were that big, but one of those holes looks like you expect to pull a 250lb tuna out of it!!
We have zero snow still here in SW CO. Wife and I have been re-thinking our play to spend the middle of June in your area... Might still be too much snow based on how much the northern rockies are getting so far this winter... what you think?
It was a bit of a hike in and I was hoping to see a couple rabbits. Lots of tracks but they were all in the thicket. Around June you shouldn't have any issues. Some of the really high passes like Gray creek may still be closed but nothing you couldn't plan around.
Unfortunately not much to update here. I dropped off the block & heads at the machine shop a little over a month ago. I asked around and just about everyone suggested this shop in particular. The owner originally said 1-2 weeks which I thought was exceptionally fast. At the 3 week mark I hadn't heard anything so I called just to check in and got another guy that asked me "what I wanted done to it?" So after telling him what I agreed to with the owner he said he would call me back, never happened. Called again last week and was told the block had been cleaned and that's as far as they got with it, said they would be done by the end of this week.
Now I'm not trying to be a pain but if you say it'll be done at this time and it's not and then don't return calls, well that's just bad business. If I don't hear something back by the end of this week/early next I'm just going to go pick it up. I realize it's not a big job for them but it's just bad customer service. Really hoping this doesn't turn bad and mess up my plans.
On the bright side of things I picked up a key piece of the puzzle yesterday.
I've been on the hunt for a cherry picker since this whole idea started out. Finally managed to score one at what I think was a very fair price - $110, and it's mint.
packs down nicely too,
Managed to break away from school for a weekend and get some riding in too. First time at kicking horse and it was absolutely stunning.
This video sums it up real nicely.
Untitled by Andrew Schwerdtfeger, on Flickr
Andrew_S
Observer
^nailed it right on the head.
So the saga continues and it's definitely not going my way.
After the last post I called again and they said come down and we'll sort this out and order some parts. So I went down they said they had been busy and wanted to get it done within a week. This was last week. Sure enough I called this week and they said yup come in and get it, it's done. So I head over and the block was sitting out front with a box of stuff they told me they would "match" summits price for me. I start loading up stuff and I'm like where are the heads, pistons and all of the bits and pieces? Oh one sec I'll go look for them. After about 15 mins they finally rounded everything up. Then I look at the bill and it's huge! like $800 more than they quoted me. I was like woah this is a lot? what happened? The guy says he couldn't get all of the parts I wanted for example I was going to order a full gasket set for the motor but he couldn't get it so he ordered 3 different ones to make one full one. The price for just that went from $75 to $420!!! I was just like whoa there's no way I'm paying this. You said you could match the price. So I dropped a couple parts off the order and walked out still fairly unhappy. When I got home I started looking at the bill some more and all of his "price matching" was like $20 per item more then what I was going to buy it for if not more. He ended up selling me a set of rings, main bearings, rod bearings, timing set, and lifters for $500... Taking it all back tomorrow and asking/demanding my money back. I can pick up those 5 things for over $200 less through summit.
The machining wasn't cheap either.
They charged me for
hot tanking - $90
honing - $82
resurfacing the heads - $144
Grind the valves & seats - $201.60
polishing the crank - $65
Install cam bearings - $90
for a total of $725
Anyway, the heads looks much better.
I would love to get some input about this cam bearing install. I noticed every bearing surface has some small scratches on them from the install. Am I just looking for mistakes now or is this something that I should be weary of?
and the hone
Bonus: As I was writing this I went out to garage to just look at my current mess and for whatever reason I decided to just try the valves in the head. Glad I did....
Don't know who's intake valves these are but they sure aren't mine...
It's ironic, this whole situation. I remember dropping the parts off and just getting this weird feeling and thinking how I hoped this all worked out well. I've read so many builds where guys get screwed around at this stage of the game. Shops holding parts hostage and not doing work for months and months. Sucks to not be in control when it comes to your own project. Something like this really takes the wind out of your sails. Hopefully tomorrow I can get to a better head space with this whole ****ty deal.
So the saga continues and it's definitely not going my way.
After the last post I called again and they said come down and we'll sort this out and order some parts. So I went down they said they had been busy and wanted to get it done within a week. This was last week. Sure enough I called this week and they said yup come in and get it, it's done. So I head over and the block was sitting out front with a box of stuff they told me they would "match" summits price for me. I start loading up stuff and I'm like where are the heads, pistons and all of the bits and pieces? Oh one sec I'll go look for them. After about 15 mins they finally rounded everything up. Then I look at the bill and it's huge! like $800 more than they quoted me. I was like woah this is a lot? what happened? The guy says he couldn't get all of the parts I wanted for example I was going to order a full gasket set for the motor but he couldn't get it so he ordered 3 different ones to make one full one. The price for just that went from $75 to $420!!! I was just like whoa there's no way I'm paying this. You said you could match the price. So I dropped a couple parts off the order and walked out still fairly unhappy. When I got home I started looking at the bill some more and all of his "price matching" was like $20 per item more then what I was going to buy it for if not more. He ended up selling me a set of rings, main bearings, rod bearings, timing set, and lifters for $500... Taking it all back tomorrow and asking/demanding my money back. I can pick up those 5 things for over $200 less through summit.
The machining wasn't cheap either.
They charged me for
hot tanking - $90
honing - $82
resurfacing the heads - $144
Grind the valves & seats - $201.60
polishing the crank - $65
Install cam bearings - $90
for a total of $725
Anyway, the heads looks much better.
I would love to get some input about this cam bearing install. I noticed every bearing surface has some small scratches on them from the install. Am I just looking for mistakes now or is this something that I should be weary of?
and the hone
Bonus: As I was writing this I went out to garage to just look at my current mess and for whatever reason I decided to just try the valves in the head. Glad I did....
Don't know who's intake valves these are but they sure aren't mine...
It's ironic, this whole situation. I remember dropping the parts off and just getting this weird feeling and thinking how I hoped this all worked out well. I've read so many builds where guys get screwed around at this stage of the game. Shops holding parts hostage and not doing work for months and months. Sucks to not be in control when it comes to your own project. Something like this really takes the wind out of your sails. Hopefully tomorrow I can get to a better head space with this whole ****ty deal.
frojoe
Adventurer
To make you feel a bit better, those machining costs aren't really out of line... for a reputable place that does respectable work. But sounds like those ************** don't deserve 1/10 of what you paid them for machining just based on how little they apparently care about you, your parts, and making you a happy customer.
1stDeuce
Explorer
I'll agree, the machine work costs you're posting don't seem that bad... Until you consider that the Loonie dollar is worth 1.2 US dollars right now!! Man, our money is going to crap here in the states... Ok, prices might be a tad high, but not as bad as the parts costs they're trying to pass along...
A $420 gasket kit must have come directly from the dealer!! Why would they do that? I can order a complete gasket kit from anywhwere for 1/10 that cost... That's just stupid.
Bonus that they couldn't even give you your valves back.
To give them the benefit of doubt, perhaps they're the only shop around, and therefore they're swamped. Though if that is the case, they should probably either turn away business, or expand, not just screw people over...
It'll go together quickly once you have the right parts.
Good Luck!
A $420 gasket kit must have come directly from the dealer!! Why would they do that? I can order a complete gasket kit from anywhwere for 1/10 that cost... That's just stupid.
Bonus that they couldn't even give you your valves back.
To give them the benefit of doubt, perhaps they're the only shop around, and therefore they're swamped. Though if that is the case, they should probably either turn away business, or expand, not just screw people over...
It'll go together quickly once you have the right parts.
Good Luck!
nitro_rat
Lunchbox Lockers
Wow, sorry you got screwed by the machine shop. I just read your thread from beginning to end. Cool job fixing up the old "dime!" Some of the scratches or dings on those cam bearings are bad. It's the ones around the edges going laterally. Ones that go radially don't really hurt anything as long as you smooth down any high spots (scotch brite works well for this). The ones that go laterally will disturb the oil film no matter what you do to them. That hone job doesn't look to hot either.
I wish that I would have seen this back when you bought the Camaro. The way to go with most factory fuel injected engines is to not open them up (multiport stuff anyway). They just don't wear out like the old carbureted stuff did. The thing is that the old stuff all started out in good tolerance and has worn in together. These kinds of parts take a LONG time to wear out. After it has been disassembled, honed with a dingle ball, had a who-knows-what valve job, a maybe not needed polish on the crank, a set of Chinese rings and bearings, etc, etc, the tolerances are usually all over the place. The new rings never seat well in the bore, the bearing clearance is not correct (hopefully it's looser rather than tighter) and the poor thing wears itself OUT before it can wear itself IN (usually smoking and knocking the whole time)!
In hindsight the smart money would have been to slap on a fresh timing chain and just use all your 2.8 fuel injection as is. It's a known combination that works and probably would have lasted the life of the truck. Also could have been done in the green budget wise. Just would have needed a flexplate, maybe rear main seal, timing gasket set and intake gasket set. Since you already have that stuff now, I vote to stop throwing good money after bad and buy another cheap running Camaro. Find one that doesn't smoke or knock. It will last forever with the TBI.
Hopefully you can get your money (and your valves) back from the machine shop...
I wish that I would have seen this back when you bought the Camaro. The way to go with most factory fuel injected engines is to not open them up (multiport stuff anyway). They just don't wear out like the old carbureted stuff did. The thing is that the old stuff all started out in good tolerance and has worn in together. These kinds of parts take a LONG time to wear out. After it has been disassembled, honed with a dingle ball, had a who-knows-what valve job, a maybe not needed polish on the crank, a set of Chinese rings and bearings, etc, etc, the tolerances are usually all over the place. The new rings never seat well in the bore, the bearing clearance is not correct (hopefully it's looser rather than tighter) and the poor thing wears itself OUT before it can wear itself IN (usually smoking and knocking the whole time)!
In hindsight the smart money would have been to slap on a fresh timing chain and just use all your 2.8 fuel injection as is. It's a known combination that works and probably would have lasted the life of the truck. Also could have been done in the green budget wise. Just would have needed a flexplate, maybe rear main seal, timing gasket set and intake gasket set. Since you already have that stuff now, I vote to stop throwing good money after bad and buy another cheap running Camaro. Find one that doesn't smoke or knock. It will last forever with the TBI.
Hopefully you can get your money (and your valves) back from the machine shop...
1stDeuce
Explorer
Nitro_rat... After reading your post, I am now so depressed for Andrew that I may need medicated.
That said, your point is valid, and hindsight is usually pretty close to 20:20. I put a Camaro 3.4L in my Comanche, and aside from the new timing chain, haven't touched it. I was told it had 100k on it, but it doesn't really matter since I don't know the maintenance history. What does matter is that the compression is good, it doesn't smoke, and it seems to run well.
Hang in the Andrew!!
That said, your point is valid, and hindsight is usually pretty close to 20:20. I put a Camaro 3.4L in my Comanche, and aside from the new timing chain, haven't touched it. I was told it had 100k on it, but it doesn't really matter since I don't know the maintenance history. What does matter is that the compression is good, it doesn't smoke, and it seems to run well.
Hang in the Andrew!!
nitro_rat
Lunchbox Lockers
Unfortunately I have been fleeced by "good" machine shops in the past also. I lost a perfect virgin 350 crank, a good 350 block that I paid to have line honed, a good Vortec head, two sets of rods, and some other items all in one whack one time. I mark my parts, measure them myself, and make the machinist give me a signed itemized receipt for anything I leave now at any shop. This should detail not only a description of the parts themselves but also a specific list of operations to be performed. This way there are no "misunderstandings" when I come to pick the stuff up later. I also bring my mics and dial bore gauge with me to check the work when I come to pick it up. Don't be surprised if they call you and tell you it's done and then say "oh, sorry, we aren't quite finished yet" when they see you walk in the door with a micrometer in hand...
Andrew_S
Observer
I appreciate the good words guys. I was just on a rant, yes the machining costs weren't out of this world. I debated on doing the cam bearings myself but said "well atleast I know they'll be done right if I hire it out" so much for that.
Nitro_rat, I hear what you're saying and I know a lot of guys don't touch these and just swap parts like you said. I was really leery of that as the previous owner told me this motor had been overheated previously when the coolant leak happened. We often hit back roads that are 100+ km's from civilization and I just wanted peace of mind. So spending what I was hoping to be about a thousand dollars to get that was the original idea.
I wish I had done just what you said in your last post. I was too trusting. Everyone I talked to (5+ people) suggested this shop and had nothing but good things to say. When I stopped by the guy (owner) seemed super knowledgable and gave me no reason to question him. I definitely learned a lesson here. I wish I had a dial bore gauge, something I should probably invest in. I appreciate the advice, but a cheap running Camaro around here is at minimum 2-3k (I've been looking for over a year) and that's likely one with higher miles then this had. I'm halfway there on this and will just see it through.
1st deuce, yeah that gasket kit sure was ridiculous. Literally trying to charge me $220 just for the head gaskets? I was just like yeah there's no way. There are like 6+ shops around town and this was the most highly recommended one. The guy does builds for promod cars and other big money stuff. I agree, be upfront about timelines and then at-least I have the option to go somewhere else.
Alright so to finish off this bull**** saga. This is exactly what went down this morning. I couldn't make this up, literally word for word.
I went to the shop this morning with the wrong valves and the box of parts. I was very calm and respectful and said "ok here's the valves you gave me, I would just like mine back." He said "oh? yeah these are for a ford?" then he took a quick look out back in the shop and then asked "if I could come back later and he could look for them?" I agreed. Then I said "about these parts and the prices, for these 5 items I thought you said your prices were close or lower then the list I gave you? but I'm like $200 over what I was going to pay for these now?" This didn't sit well with him (owner), he says "bull****, there's no way you can get those for less" I was just like "I don't know what to tell you, those are the prices, I'm not trying to offend you or question your profit margin but I told you I could only give you the business if it was the same price or really close. I can't afford to spend $200 more just for the sake of it" He then says "Well the cam is cheaper!" I was like " yeah because your cam didn't include the lifters which were $65 more and you also charged me $38 freight on top of that" Then he just went off "Fine I'll just shove the cam right up my *** then!!! I'm pissed"- Literally said this to me screaming. I just stayed calm. I was like "listen if you couldn't get me the parts for those prices I wish you would have just told me and I wouldn't have wasted my time and yours." Then he says "If i knew you were going to be like this I would have charged you more for labour", and started threatening to add money to my bill in labour so I wouldn't get all of my parts money back. After this he just kept rambling about how I could never get the parts that cheap and how he never should have taken this job and on and on. Brutal experience, so disappointed in how this ended up. I guess if you aren't spending 20k+ you're not worth the time at this shop.
Long story short, I got my money back for the parts ($543) I hate being "that guy" but frig I feel like I was more then forgiving in this whole ordeal.
To just put the last bit of icing on the cake I called later in the day to see if they found my valves. The owner answers "nope didn't find them, so I stripped a set out of another pair of heads, they are round..."
Went and picked them up knowing I was just wasting my time. Get home and this is what I've got...
yup, not even close. Way to small.
Might just shelve this for a bit. This whole experience has really taken the fun out of it.
Nitro_rat, I hear what you're saying and I know a lot of guys don't touch these and just swap parts like you said. I was really leery of that as the previous owner told me this motor had been overheated previously when the coolant leak happened. We often hit back roads that are 100+ km's from civilization and I just wanted peace of mind. So spending what I was hoping to be about a thousand dollars to get that was the original idea.
I wish I had done just what you said in your last post. I was too trusting. Everyone I talked to (5+ people) suggested this shop and had nothing but good things to say. When I stopped by the guy (owner) seemed super knowledgable and gave me no reason to question him. I definitely learned a lesson here. I wish I had a dial bore gauge, something I should probably invest in. I appreciate the advice, but a cheap running Camaro around here is at minimum 2-3k (I've been looking for over a year) and that's likely one with higher miles then this had. I'm halfway there on this and will just see it through.
1st deuce, yeah that gasket kit sure was ridiculous. Literally trying to charge me $220 just for the head gaskets? I was just like yeah there's no way. There are like 6+ shops around town and this was the most highly recommended one. The guy does builds for promod cars and other big money stuff. I agree, be upfront about timelines and then at-least I have the option to go somewhere else.
Alright so to finish off this bull**** saga. This is exactly what went down this morning. I couldn't make this up, literally word for word.
I went to the shop this morning with the wrong valves and the box of parts. I was very calm and respectful and said "ok here's the valves you gave me, I would just like mine back." He said "oh? yeah these are for a ford?" then he took a quick look out back in the shop and then asked "if I could come back later and he could look for them?" I agreed. Then I said "about these parts and the prices, for these 5 items I thought you said your prices were close or lower then the list I gave you? but I'm like $200 over what I was going to pay for these now?" This didn't sit well with him (owner), he says "bull****, there's no way you can get those for less" I was just like "I don't know what to tell you, those are the prices, I'm not trying to offend you or question your profit margin but I told you I could only give you the business if it was the same price or really close. I can't afford to spend $200 more just for the sake of it" He then says "Well the cam is cheaper!" I was like " yeah because your cam didn't include the lifters which were $65 more and you also charged me $38 freight on top of that" Then he just went off "Fine I'll just shove the cam right up my *** then!!! I'm pissed"- Literally said this to me screaming. I just stayed calm. I was like "listen if you couldn't get me the parts for those prices I wish you would have just told me and I wouldn't have wasted my time and yours." Then he says "If i knew you were going to be like this I would have charged you more for labour", and started threatening to add money to my bill in labour so I wouldn't get all of my parts money back. After this he just kept rambling about how I could never get the parts that cheap and how he never should have taken this job and on and on. Brutal experience, so disappointed in how this ended up. I guess if you aren't spending 20k+ you're not worth the time at this shop.
Long story short, I got my money back for the parts ($543) I hate being "that guy" but frig I feel like I was more then forgiving in this whole ordeal.
To just put the last bit of icing on the cake I called later in the day to see if they found my valves. The owner answers "nope didn't find them, so I stripped a set out of another pair of heads, they are round..."
Went and picked them up knowing I was just wasting my time. Get home and this is what I've got...
yup, not even close. Way to small.
Might just shelve this for a bit. This whole experience has really taken the fun out of it.
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nitro_rat
Lunchbox Lockers
Wow, I’m really surprised you got your money back! Don’t feel bad about being “that guy,” they screwed you. Just take a break like you said. Make sure to preserve everything before you put it away. In a few months (or years) you’ll be ready to come back to it. The best deals come when you aren’t looking!
PS: don’t forget about 90’s GM FWD cars as a source for parts (think Pontiac Grand Am, Chevy Impala, etc...), the ones with the 3400 have “3400” cast into the aluminum intake, real big, right on top! Maybe grab a motor or a set of heads on 1/2 price day at the U-Pull-It!
PS: don’t forget about 90’s GM FWD cars as a source for parts (think Pontiac Grand Am, Chevy Impala, etc...), the ones with the 3400 have “3400” cast into the aluminum intake, real big, right on top! Maybe grab a motor or a set of heads on 1/2 price day at the U-Pull-It!
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B
BPD53
Guest
Andrew_S
I've been through a similar experience with my truck. I can say for sure that it took the fun out of the project and made me want to put it down for a while.
My suggestion is to push forward and get it right while you are able. I think a shelved project gets put on the back burner pretty fast and often times goes unrealized.
To be honest I feel like your build is one of my favorites because it's based in reality. This build is a great example to show people the truth of putting together a vehicle. A man has to take the bad with the good during a truck build. Sometimes this happens and our response to it determines our character.
If it were easy everybody would have a cool 1986 S15.
Keep pushing forward.
I've been through a similar experience with my truck. I can say for sure that it took the fun out of the project and made me want to put it down for a while.
My suggestion is to push forward and get it right while you are able. I think a shelved project gets put on the back burner pretty fast and often times goes unrealized.
To be honest I feel like your build is one of my favorites because it's based in reality. This build is a great example to show people the truth of putting together a vehicle. A man has to take the bad with the good during a truck build. Sometimes this happens and our response to it determines our character.
If it were easy everybody would have a cool 1986 S15.
Keep pushing forward.
1stDeuce
Explorer
FYI, the 3400's will NOT bolt into a RWD application. You have to use the camaro block. But I think you CAN use the 3400 heads, which flow quite a bit better if you want. Makes better HP, but probably won't do much for torque...
If they deliver to Canadia, Rock Auto has some good prices on valves... Still cheaper than paying the machine shop for the parts they wanted to sell you...
Will your cam require new valve springs too? Hopefully the stock springs will still work...
If they deliver to Canadia, Rock Auto has some good prices on valves... Still cheaper than paying the machine shop for the parts they wanted to sell you...
Will your cam require new valve springs too? Hopefully the stock springs will still work...