2020 Defender Spy Shots....

mpinco

Expedition Leader
Agreed, I think there are trucks running on it allready? Im sure they are looking into it, hopefuly MLA can be adapted to suit if its becomes viable.

There is a hydrogen fuel thread on the AU LR forum, pretty interesting.
Thx for the heads up on FCV discussions. Pure EV's are not interesting to me. Anyone in LR design should also come to that conclusion given the issues with batteries, cold temps and range.
 

blackangie

Member
Australia will be a key market!!?? HA. Rover handed that to Toyota over 30 years ago.

Go to the edge of the Simpson Desert with one of these new Defenders and a brand new Toyota 70 series. Park them next to each other, outfit them with everything you need to cross. No one would pick the Defender with independent air suspension and low profile tires.

The Defender might sell well, picking up LR4 owners but that is it.
They obviously see what we buy here and think the new D will sell well, so sue them .

Im guessing you don't like the defender of any year by that comment.

70 series need 50k spent just to fix fundamental issues, get it as reliable and as capable as current defender, if you want me to expand i will, but i feel that will take us way off subject.

70series is a great work truck to get from site a to site b,but it takes a huge amount of dollars to get it to defender stage.

Defender 2016 is around 5k to fix fundamental issues and reliability

New defender has been seen on a variety of profile tyres, rims sizes and brake sizes. Air suspension is reliable if maintained + for those wanting a desert tourer and are scared of air bags even though trucks and heavy mining trucks use them, coils will no doubt be an option like the D5.

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blackangie

Member
Jeep buyers are don't care about '1 star' ratings. They are looking for a vehicle that can be significantly modified, accessorized, configured as a hardtop and convertible, a outdoor statement, etc. Attributes that don't even enter the LR thinking. Here in Colorado the ratio of Jeeps to LR's is probably 100:1.

If LR doesn't figure out how to increase sales volumes they will be absorbed into another manufacturers group.
Haha, that's because no doubt the US car manufacturers lobby got landrover thrown out of the country in 97. They will be playing catch up now for sure.

Landrover was only allowed to import 500 per year because of safety, what a joke, the jeep has the worst safety record and they pump them out. Dont get me started on that subject, the corruption there was next level.

Looking at Moab initial reports looks like the new Defenders capability off-road is promising.

Family of defenders is being released, soft tops are tipped.



Jeeps are a good thing and i love how the aftermarket backs them, however internationally where safety is a concern, in their current form, they are living on borrowed time.


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mpinco

Expedition Leader
Haha, that's because no doubt the US car manufacturers lobby got landrover thrown out of the country in 97. .............
LR defender wasn't "thrown out". Their product didn't sell well because of stagnant design, price, reliability and a lack of understanding the market. Worldwide Jeep does well in the US while LR does well ROW although Toyota has displaced them in many locations. Safety, while mandated, was not a primary concern of the buyers. Both Jeep and aftermarket offer a broad range of options and ability to modify for the buyers preferences. Honestly there isn't a Jeep on the road today that remains stock more than 3 months, or less. THAT was the differentiator and remains so today. The family Jeep becomes a hobby. Can the new Defender be a 'hobby'? If not it will struggle.

JLR is in the midst of a financial crisis because auto volumes dropped at the time they executed on a long planned 3 product line introduction - Range Rover, SUV (Discovery) and Off-Road (Defender) lines. While JLR was impacted by several significant issues (diesel, Brexit, trade wars, China contraction, EV's) they still would have struggled to execute the product line expansion. The entire auto industry is in the midst of change and likely consolidation.
 

sg1

Adventurer
I know that you are a LR fan or perhaps a marketing rep. But now you must be joking when you claim that the Defender was way more reliable than a Landcruiser or a 70 series Toyota. I don't own a Toyota and have no plans to buy one. But I worked as a senior executive in the mining business for many years and I don't know a single mining company using Defenders. In North America we and everybody else use US pick ups and in the rest of the world Toyota Hilux, Ford Ranger (international version) or similar mid size pick ups for light duty applications. For heavy duty service more than 90% use Toyota 70 series or Landcruisers. I have never seen a Defender for commercial use in Latin America or a farmer in the Australian outback using a LR for his daily chores. Do you think they avoid Defenders because they are too reliable? Among long-term overland travelers the (un)reliability of LR is legendary. But the old Defender could at least be fixed easily and because of its coil springs it is better than a 70 series Toyota when going off road.
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
A Range Rover is expected to be a complete luxury statement. No modifications required. The Defender/Jeep/Bronco/... is the opposite end of the spectrum. The expectation IS that the vehicle can be modified and I'm not just talking about tires.

Speaking of a vehicle being a 'hobby', ready to be customized by the consumer .................

Ford Bronco patents? Two designs for removable doors
Patent paperwork details four different portals
 
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blackangie

Member
LR defender wasn't "thrown out". Their product didn't sell well because of stagnant design, price, reliability and a lack of understanding the market. Worldwide Jeep does well in the US while LR does well ROW although Toyota has displaced them in many locations. Safety, while mandated, was not a primary concern of the buyers. Both Jeep and aftermarket offer a broad range of options and ability to modify for the buyers preferences. Honestly there isn't a Jeep on the road today that remains stock more than 3 months, or less. THAT was the differentiator and remains so today. The family Jeep becomes a hobby. Can the new Defender be a 'hobby'? If not it will struggle.

JLR is in the midst of a financial crisis because auto volumes dropped at the time they executed on a long planned 3 product line introduction - Range Rover, SUV (Discovery) and Off-Road (Defender) lines. While JLR was impacted by several significant issues (diesel, Brexit, trade wars, China contraction, EV's) they still would have struggled to execute the product line expansion. The entire auto industry is in the midst of change and likely consolidation.
It's interesting it when you look at the facts though it seems that Land Rover were restricted to 500 units in the US per year before those regulations came in. And let's remember that when the "regulations" did come in the Jeep remained one star safety rated to this day. What a joke. They were not concerned about safety at all.

"The Defender hasn’t been sold new in the U.S. since 1997, and even then, sales weren’t huge—Land Rover was only allowed to import 500 per year of the 1990s models since they didn’t meet safety standards, according to Automotive News. Other than that, models meeting the 25-year import rule have been fair game."

https://jalopnik.com/the-land-rover-defender-is-coming-back-to-the-u-s-in-2-1831340621

In my opinion the American Auto lobby would have been behind it all, and the defender crushing. Could be wrong, just a hunch I've always had.


Agree with your take on JLRs Perfect Storm in the last couple of years, however it seems even with China's issues, brexit and before the defender things are looking up. Its not all doom and gloom


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blackangie

Member
I know that you are a LR fan or perhaps a marketing rep. But now you must be joking when you claim that the Defender was way more reliable than a Landcruiser or a 70 series Toyota. I don't own a Toyota and have no plans to buy one. But I worked as a senior executive in the mining business for many years and I don't know a single mining company using Defenders. In North America we and everybody else use US pick ups and in the rest of the world Toyota Hilux, Ford Ranger (international version) or similar mid size pick ups for light duty applications. For heavy duty service more than 90% use Toyota 70 series or Landcruisers. I have never seen a Defender for commercial use in Latin America or a farmer in the Australian outback using a LR for his daily chores. Do you think they avoid Defenders because they are too reliable? Among long-term overland travelers the (un)reliability of LR is legendary. But the old Defender could at least be fixed easily and because of its coil springs it is better than a 70 series Toyota when going off road.
Crikey a marketing rep now? its called passion matey, jump on the AU forum to see my history if you want to investigate conspiracy theories. trying to discredit someone by saying they are getting paid says a lot about their side of the discussion. The same could be said about ones on here that only post negativity regarding LR or Defender old and new, especially ones that don't drive them, but i dont bring that up, i just stick to facts are they lobbying for another company? Hmm

Nobody said one vehicle was more reliable than the other, what I did say though is to get the 70 series up to the standard of a defender it costs a huge amount of money.

Mines in AU only use 5 star safety rated vehicles, this strikes the defender off in its current form straight away and also that strikes off the 79 series dual cab. They are not used in mines. The cab chassis is the only 70 series that is used.

Just because the car is used in the mines it doesn't make it more reliable, it just means that they got a good deal and they are safety rated.

What is interesting is the amount of maintenance it takes to keep the mine vehicles going that some people don't talk about or seem to gloss over.

The 2016 Defender has two fundamental issues:

Shaft between gearbox and transfer case needs a lubrication modification. And the rear diff needs an upgrade for serious offroad work. Thats it, off you go, incredible off-road vehicle economical and reliable.

5k and then 20k of mods boom and your doing a big lap of Australia.

The current 79 series needs a huge amount of work just to get to that standard, its always amuses me how toyotas "reliability" marketing brainwashes the masses from facts.

Heresa a few from the AU forum.

They don't put this in the ads

As most know, the track massively(4inches!) different front to back

Uncomfortable and restrictive leafs that hang under rear axle housing.

Fix both above AU$10k

Alternator that fails on nearly every decent offroad trip(Last a few weeks in mines) AU$3k fix to watercooled

Starter in valley fails if you get water in the bonnet vent(water crossings, heavy rain) as it doesn't drain out and starter dies. No fix I've heard and very very hard to get to starter.

Trucklike manual, all but the newert models have high rpm @ 110kph auto fix but good conv AU$20k

Fake factory snorkel let's water in, safari 4inch fix AU$1500

Terrible handbrake, Nissan patrol Mark's 4x4 fix or Jmax fix AU$1-2k

Injectors are very susceptible to dirt and water, need high quality pre filter.

Basically fundamentally badly engineered driveline leaves you fighting two different ruts on beach and unstable rear on hills, fundamental parts of engine are unreliable due to location of Alt and starter and fuel setup, snorkel that is meant for water crossing causes engine failure if not fixed. Handbrake can cause death, if chocks are not used

They lift front wheels like crazy on steep hills especially when loaded and gets even worse with 79 traybacks that get heavy canopy added by most.

Buyers in Oz spend between AU$10-20k building a heavy steel canopy on the rear tray which increases the weight behind the rear axle and makes them lift wheels even more, just to try and get enough waterproof storage which the defender wagon has standard.

Many in OZ are Now adding portal axles to try and keep up with other brands after they end up with extremely heavy vehicles AU$20k

Injectors can leave you stranded in the outback.

Most above fixable but you must add all that onto the purchase price if you want to use it offroad properly. Above is already around AU35-50k or more ontop of purchase if you want to get it up to standard.

Real price new is 120-150k if you want to address some of the issues, thats before you start the real mods that everyone does to them to try and keep up with the landies in the ruff stuff ha.

150k easy with mods.

Having said all that I agree in standard form the 70 series is a very good thing to go between work sites and in that scenario without a doubt more reliable than the Defender, but if you want to start comparing it with the reliability and off road capability of the defender we need to get real and look at the facts.




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blackangie

Member
A Range Rover is expected to be a complete luxury statement. No modifications required. The Defender/Jeep/Bronco/... is the opposite end of the spectrum. The expectation IS that the vehicle can be modified and I'm not just talking about tires.

Speaking of a vehicle being a 'hobby', ready to be customized by the consumer .................

Ford Bronco patents? Two designs for removable doors
Patent paperwork details four different portals
Looks cool, I'm sure the American aftermarket will get behind the defender now that it's actually allowed to be sold there. It didn't take long for lucky 8 to build stuff for the discovery 5 and that's more upmarket.

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blackangie

Member
Some trail video finally out of moab, short but at least its moving

Some more pics too.

http://instagr.am/p/BwLTIDVDblA/
http://instagr.am/p/BwLJUbwAaSj/
jonnylieberman

"Got some more intel on this thing. It is 100% the Land Rover Defender mule in a Halloween costume testing here in Moab. This is the two-door version which will be badged as Defender 90. There will be a four-door 110 version. There will probably do a soft top version of the 90. Hopefully the Landy boffins take note of the 1,000s of Unlimited Wranglers crawling all over Moab at the moment and do a 110 softy. Bench seats will be an option!! And yeah, a supercharged V-8, too. Though not at first. Pretty exciting, no? Remember, you’re looking at camo."

http://instagr.am/p/BwGeZmvnL0p/
http://instagr.am/p/BwGBlHvlr8d/


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LR Max

Local Oaf
That is very interesting.

On the flipside, the aftermarket has catered to these issues, and provides fixes. The main issue I see with all new rovers is that JLR has done everything they can to "lock out" the aftermarket. So whatever issues crop up with the newer vehicles, it'll be an uphill battle.

With the newer vehicles, fitting oversized tires is...limited. Sure you can do it if you ignore the fun noises it makes afterwards. With the old defender model, you can slap any variety of tire sizes on, easy. The newer ones are extremely limited.
 

naks

Member
yeah, but looking at that clip - they were successfully completing all obstacles on road tyres at road pressures.

All you would need is a set of same-size AT or MT tyres for some added grip, and you'd be (almost) unstoppable :)
 

blackangie

Member
When it rains it pours, haven't had time to watch this properly yet.




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Engineer:

"We been out here tuning these...been here for 2 weeks..this is the finished car...not bad for road tyres at road pressures"

Offroad Alliance:

"Out here testing the 2L diesel..We were quite impressed with how these vehicles performed on the trails, they have great terrain management systems, we saw them crawl up and down the trails right in front of us"

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99Discovery

Adventurer
I don't have an issue with IRS/IFS and the air suspension. A bit more maintenance than coils? Sure. But a proper crosslinked air-suspension is a joy to wheel.

I have two major issues with the Defender prototypes that are deal breakers for me.

First: Rim size. Someone has mentioned they've been seen in "various profiles". Looking at the photos there is no room between the caliper and the rim on 20"s. I believe I've seen some shots of the Defender on 21"s, but if someone has shots of the mules running around on 18"s or 17"s please link to them. I doubt they fit, but I really want them too.

Second: and I'm surprised I'm the only one harping on this: The radiators in front of the grill! You can clearly see by the mesh vents on both the mule (the one in the Range Rover Sport body) and the Prototype, that the radiators are most likely in the same place as the current D5 and Range Rover.

Watch this video of the 2013 Range Rover going over this course and see why I'm concerned about the radiator placement. A vital component of your vehicle is placed directly in the line of fire:



At the end of the day, I believe the new Defender will actually look awesome (I'm a fan of Alloy N' Grit's take on the camouflage), it will also perform well within it's element (if the rumors are true it completed Golden Spike....that's an accomplishment), but it just won't be designed to take the consistent abuse that a dedicated overland/rock crawler needs to be designed to take. Too many vitals in bad locations, wrong tire size, etc.
 
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