2020 Defender Spy Shots....

[JeepColorado]

The New Land Rover Defender Will Not Be Like the Old One

And why that’s the best news possible for Land Rover lovers

www.outsideonline.com

Great article posted someone posted on another forum.

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Good article overall, certainly makes me see the new Defender in a different light. There's two aspects I disagree with regarding lockers vs traction control.

1st he notes that mechanical lockers are difficult to engage and compares this to the ease of turning a knob to engage traction control. Old school wire mechanical lockers perhaps, but modern lockers whether they be ARB Air Lockers or Electronically-engaged lockers like in the Jeep Rubicon all come on and off at the flip of a switch. I'm not sure you honestly say that turning a knob is objectively easier than flipping a switch or pushing a button.

2nd, while it's true that traction control doesn't affect steering the way engaged lockers do it's not true that they engage the moment traction is lost- there's plenty of videos on youtube of 4Runners and LRs with traction control spinning for several seconds before the system finally recognizes that traction is lost and attempts to figure out which tire needs what degree of power. Another problem is not just that it takes a bit for it to find traction it's that it must lose traction to engage in the first place. Mud, slick rocks etc.. there are several situations that you need to go into with traction first, you don't need to lose it, then try to regain it. The biggest problem with all of this is that while the vehicles struggles to regain momentum it's often lurching as the wheels spin leading to breakage.

 

[blackangie]

Good article overall, certainly makes me see the new Defender in a different light. There's two aspects I disagree with regarding lockers vs traction control.

1st he notes that mechanical lockers are difficult to engage and compares this to the ease of turning a knob to engage traction control. Old school wire mechanical lockers perhaps, but modern lockers whether they be ARB Air Lockers or Electronically-engaged lockers like in the Jeep Rubicon all come on and off at the flip of a switch. I'm not sure you honestly say that turning a knob is objectively easier than flipping a switch or pushing a button.

2nd, while it's true that traction control doesn't affect steering the way engaged lockers do it's not true that they engage the moment traction is lost- there's plenty of videos on youtube of 4Runners and LRs with traction control spinning for several seconds before the system finally recognizes that traction is lost and attempts to figure out which tire needs what degree of power. Another problem is not just that it takes a bit for it to find traction it's that it must lose traction to engage in the first place. Mud, slick rocks etc.. there are several situations that you need to go into with traction first, you don't need to lose it, then try to regain it. The biggest problem with all of this is that while the vehicles struggles to regain momentum it's often lurching as the wheels spin leading to breakage.

Some elockers disengage when you dont want them to, some air lockers are prone to leakage and some take a while to disengage. I would say the new defender at a minimum will have full TR plus rear elocker of some kind (maybe front based on youtube vid comments?)

 

[mpinco]

I would expect the new Defender to have at a minimum a rear locker + traction control, similar to the LR4. This is not a new sub-system.

 

[mpinco]

The New Land Rover Defender Will Not Be Like the Old One

And why that’s the best news possible for Land Rover lovers

www.outsideonline.com

Great article posted someone posted on another forum.

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Author is clueless. Coil springs were used on the gen 1 Ford Bronco. Late 60's/early 70's? Mechanical lockers are not difficult to engage. It's called a switch on the dash. As for early TC which is really just reverse ABS, it sucked. Higher sampling rates have helped but it can still suck in several conditions. TC requires momentum which is not always a good thing.

 

[merr1ca]

Author is clueless. Coil springs were used on the gen 1 Ford Bronco. Late 60's/early 70's? Mechanical lockers are not difficult to engage. It's called a switch on the dash. As for early TC which is really just reverse ABS, it sucked. Higher sampling rates have helped but it can still suck in several conditions. TC requires momentum which is not always a good thing.

There's so much conjecture and clueless jiberish going around.

 

[blackangie]

There's so much conjecture and clueless jiberish going around.

Agreed,there is no "momentum" in the moab vids

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[35xj]

Author is clueless. Coil springs were used on the gen 1 Ford Bronco. Late 60's/early 70's? Mechanical lockers are not difficult to engage. It's called a switch on the dash. As for early TC which is really just reverse ABS, it sucked. Higher sampling rates have helped but it can still suck in several conditions. TC requires momentum which is not always a good thing.

thats quite a statement! id be marginally intrigued to see you pedigree. Recent traction control does not require momentum in all modern SUV's. agreed, not everything out there is quick to respond with minimal wheel speed, but a few people have got it right. Yes. EB's had coils very early in the front end, RR had them all the way around in 70.

 

[mpinco]

thats quite a statement! id be marginally intrigued to see you pedigree. Recent traction control does not require momentum in all modern SUV's. agreed, not everything out there is quick to respond with minimal wheel speed, but a few people have got it right. Yes. EB's had coils very early in the front end, RR had them all the way around in 70.

Several years ago a group of LR's took a Sunday drive through the mountains. 90's Disco's, 90's Defenders, 00's Disco's, 10's RR's. After lunch there was a hill with a nice view at the top. Broken down granite and shale the entire length. The open-diff vehicles made it maybe 20' up the incline. The TC equipped vehicles roughly 40' and that included several attempts and grumbling that TC should have worked and questions to the LR people on why it didn't. The vehicles with lockers walked right up.

TC requires wheel spin. The spin is detected, brakes applied to that wheel to transfer power to the other wheels. All of this is happening at the sampling frequency of the TC ECU. Basically reverse ABS. When multiple wheel spin is detected the system tries to transfer power to the wheel that is not being braked. Forward momentum is now reduced in an environment of engine power modulation and braking. At the termination of the hill climb attempt the system thrashes as it attempts to find any traction. This is when the climb fails. TC works when there is a variety of terrain that it can grab on to and continue the climb with some momentum. For terrain that is comprised of small rocks and broken down material under all wheels, not so much.

 

[35xj]

everything you've stated about tc is true mechanically. My response was more directed towards you calling the author clueless

 

[mpinco]

everything you've stated about tc is true mechanically. My response was more directed towards you calling the author clueless

"........Back in those days, coil-spring suspension was unheard of in the off-road world. ......."

Any description of suspension technology that doesn't take into account early Gen 1 Broncos says alot. Ford used coil springs 4 years before the RR was intro'd. RR hub technology was basically International Scout. My 60's/70's Scout front hub socket works on my 95 RRC.

 

[Red90]

Land Rovers used the same hub nut size as Jeeps. Everybody used that size until the 70s. It is all long before the Range Rover.

The issue with TC is it takes power always to give traction. This only works in certain situations.

 

[blackangie]

The big Land Rovers are avail with rear diff lock so should be same at a minimum for new defender.

Good article also about showing speed things like traction are measured with TR2

The Off-Road Tech that makes The 2017 Land Rover Discovery So Good

Combining software & hardware together for glory

www.topspeed.com

"The heart is Land Rover’s Terrain Response 2 system. It acts as the brain and control center of the vehicle. The driver selects the appropriate terrain and ride height setting, and the computer does the rest. It monitors vehicle progress upwards of 1,000 times a second and modifies differential locks, traction control, and throttle inputs to ensure the vehicle keeps moving. "

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[mpinco]

"The driver selects the appropriate terrain and ride height setting, and the computer does the rest. "

LOL. The owners of vehicles equipped with TC 'assumed' that the computer did the rest. Well guess what ............ point-and-shoot was point-and-fail. There's more to a successful off-road drive than a computer.

 

[Buliwyf]

TC is nowhere near as good as lockers. Full throttle while the TC manages spin with your brakes, is very sketchy. Although it did get me unstuck in a box stock truck, when an earlier year truck would have been completely done for.

 

[blackangie]

TC is nowhere near as good as lockers. Full throttle while the TC manages spin with your brakes, is very sketchy. Although it did get me unstuck in a box stock truck, when an earlier year truck would have been completely done for.

Agreed in most circumstances however being able to direct all avail power to only wheels with traction also has its advantages offroad and that tech also has advantages offroad.

I would say a combo is best.


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