3FE Supporters (Enter here)

[ChuckB]

I know that there are a few 3FE enthusiasts around here (upcruiser, hltoppr, 60seriesguy). I have been doing some more thinking from my original post (see link) http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=17563#post17563

I'm coming to the logical conclusion that diesel is probably not going to be a feasible option mostly due to $$$. Rather than spend a ton of cash and have a nice shiny diesel motor, I'd rather spread that cash out on the rest of the vehicle. I have been thinking a lot about 2F/3FE/1FZ and my desires for this vehicle that I'm and building in my head.

Based on comments from the previous post above. I am thinking that a 3FE and H55F would probably suit my needs. (I'm pretty stuck on the truck being a manual). I have read elsewhere that this is a pretty good combination and really makes the 3FE come alive when seperated from the slushbox. (Looking for comments on this from current 3FE owners) If I go this route I would probably lean toward this set up in a FJ80 rather than a 60/62. I think that coil springs are probably worth a slightly heavier vechicle. Keep in mind I am not designing this to be a Daily Driver, but it probably will get driven a good amount.

Of course these are all just thoughts in my head and I wanted to see what you guys thought, since I will hopefully be joining you on a trip in the future.

 

[Pskhaat]

I have a 3F-E in my FJ40. Yes it does come alive with a manul tranny.

There is currently a 2H Toyota diesel for sale. The 2H as I understand it bolts to the existing 2F/3F motor mounts as well as the bellhousing; eliminating that major work. IIRC it's like $1200 (not bad).

You would be suprised how well the H42 does behind the 3F-E, it's consistently ~20% below the automatic in gearing and has the same # of gears obviously. Yes, H55f would be tops, but adding more $, H42 works beautifully.

Are you doing this to your 60 or purchasing an FJ80? There are many advantages to an FJ80 over an FZJ80 (search some of my other posts & responses).

Now, regardless of 60 | 80 (and since you have a 2F block in your 60) I would consider mating the 3F-E head onto a 2F block, then you have the benefits of more displacement, lower torque curve, and fuel injection. Mated against a manual H42/H55f this combination would be fantastic; as you might know there are a few that run this combination.

Is this vehicle for long distance travel/expedition or rockcrawling/domestic use? If the former I would personally de-modernize and put in a non-US carb and manual adjust dizzy with a `professional' desmogging. That 2F with that combination would probably be able to burn any gasoline found.

People often disagree with my vehicles of choice, but if you really want a manual tranny as you stated in your linked posts, a 1991|1992 FJ80 is your best option, it'll be very $$ to get a manual in an FZJ80, whilst an H41/H42/H55f will bolt directly in (use a 2F flywheel and bellhousing) into an FJ80; there's some other complications, but minor ones like driveline adjustment. You could probably use a 60 series clutch pedal assembly and make it work quite easily in an 80.



60seriesguy made a decision to go Cummins which I respect immensely, but a 2H into an 80 would be a very SWEET stock swap. 2H lacks some power yes, but so does the 2F/3F-E in an 80 anyway.

 

[60seriesguy]

I am indeed a big fan of the 3F motor, but I don't have much experience with the 3FE. I owned six Land Cruisers powered by the 3F and H55F and I was always happy with the power. In stockish form (no SOA, no big tires, no loaded for bear), the 3F is a great engine.

What pskhaat described is known in Venezuela as a 2F "Plus" (2F block, 3F head, 1FZ carb) and it's a pretty sweet setup for it's simplicity and lack of electronics.

But if you're in the US, and plan to do most of your traveling/expeditions in the US, then it's probably not a problem to stay with the fuel injection.

I like the thought of a 3FE + H55F in an 80 series, but that's a big project for the results, unless you come across a super clean 80 series with a dead engine. Even then, depending on your budget, you might want to just throw in a fresh 1FZ or 3FE and call it a day. I don't know if parts for a 60 series can be retrofitted into an 80 series to do a clutch setup, but I suspect that having the 80 series microfiche and either a Aussie friend or a good Aussie dismantler would be enough to source those parts, can't imagine they would be very expensive.

I chose a Cummins 4BT because my 3F was dead, and because my morbidly obese FJ62 was yielding horrible mileage. I just got 890 miles since my last fillup (March 2nd) and still had about 6 gallons of diesel left in the tank. That's about 26 MPG, give or take. As the price of all fuel continues to rise, the decision seems to get better and better rationalization!

 

[60seriesguy]

I would look at your ability to (one time, i believe) import a vehicle as military personel. Its been close to 20 years since I bought a car in Europe and went throught ALL the gray market riggamarole...BUT...If my memory serves me...
Military personel can bring a car into the country EXEMPT from DOT and EPA.

That door was closed in November of 1996, when the new DOT Importation laws went into effect. With it went my dream of a 70 series "companion" sitting next to the old girl...

 

[ChuckB]

The word "de-smog" is taboo here in California. So that option is basically out. I think that the only legal way to get around that is to have a Cruiser that is '75 or older as that is cut-off for being smog exempt. I would seriously consider a 2FE if someone can convince me that it will pass smog in CA.

I have no issues on buying a rig and having the motor totally rebuilt. I am planning a rebuild into my budget just in case. My current 60 will most likely(99.9%) not be around for parts when I start this project. The plan is to start from scratch.

I plan on this vehicle being an expedition/long distance traveler both stateside and eventually going to Baja for starters. Tires would be no bigger than 33" and would eventually be loaded down pretty good with gear I imagine.

The only 2 diesel options that I think I could legally drive in California are the MB om617 and the Iveco (International Power Stroke??) that TLC 4x4 is offering. Of course this is short of going through the pain of importing. The MB diesel has a solid reputation but is slightly underpowered (can be increased with a few screw turns). The Iveco motor I have no clue about reliability or durability. Does anyone have any insight on this? Jonathan Ward at TLC says he can put the Iveco in any Cruiser '85 or older for CA. But I imagine that will be big $$$ for motor and labor and would deplete the funds for the project rapidly.

Joaquin Suave - I am interested in your MB TD. There is currently a kit being developed to put a OM617 into a 40/55/60 series cruiser. Could you provide some more details?

Proposed choices:

1) FJ80 - 3FE + H55F (I think this is my first choice right now until I can find out more info on the diesel option)

2) FJ60 - 3FE + H55F

3) FJ60 - 2FE + H55F

4) FJ60 - MB Diesel or Iveco + 5sp

 

[Pskhaat]

The 2F-E will pass just as well as the 3F-E, I am seriously doubting that anyone's checking even in Kali the stroke on the block.

The 2F-E is much more a simpler swap into a 60 than a 3F-E, if you want to know details let me know.

As per the diesel, why NOT consider that 2H?

 

[ChuckB]

Chuck B wrote:

BTW: Diesel motors (that came from vehicles, not tractors or boats) are smog excempt in California.

That is true. But I did some research to the point of actually calling CARB and the short version is yes, diesels are smog exempt. But if you do an engine swap the engine has to be from the same vehicle weight class or less and the same year or newer. That is why in CA a 4BT/GM6.2/6.5 will not be legally registered even though diesels are smog exempt.

Pskhaat, I think that if I was going to go the Toyota diesel route I would go with a turbo 3B or 13B-T, I believe from what I have read that those are the "choice" engines, but I could be wrong. I'm not really up to speed on all the TOY diesels...

I am interested in the 2FE though. I think that would be a sweet combo in with an H55F. I know at home I saved the Toyota Trails where they did a write up on the conversion. When I get home (in about 3 months) I'll have to dive back through it. My mechincal skills leave a little to be desired right now, how would all the smog equipment work on that setup? I could not do that conversion my self and would have to have a shop do it...

 

[Pskhaat]

Pskhaat, I think that if I was going to go the Toyota diesel route I would go with a turbo 3B or 13B-T, I believe from what I have read that those are the "choice" engines

Yes, there are some that would say that, however my brother (fj803fe on this board) has a BJ60 and though the 3B's are amazingly strong albeit slow engines, for a conversion I would still do a 2H as to not have to fab engine mounts, and the fact that a 3B requires a different H55f (spline/shaft length?) than what is commonly available.

As for that matter, I do know that he (my brother with the BJ60) is looking to sell his, so PM me if that's a route you'd like to go; US clean titled & registered.

how would all the smog equipment work on that setup? I could not do that conversion my self and would have to have a shop do it...

Basically (and being very general here), almost everything stays as-is, you just put a different head & intake manifold & thottle body & air cleaner & ECU in. The `smog' equipment can stay as is. EGR can be plumbed into the air intake (as before), the air injection system remains essentially the exact same, just driven off a different set of ports. The nice thing about this is ALL equipment is bolt-in even air cleaners as there were many FJ62's. You wouldn't I wouldn't think have to even claim it as an engine `swap', it's just adding FI to it, the block is the same. It's cleaner too because the accessory mounting on the 3F-E and even the cooling fan are different and that causes a lot of headaches.

Now the BIG question is, does this make the most $ sense? You could very easily have the current engine rebuilt, put a non-US carb and dizzy on it, it'll perform great, throw your H55f in there and have an expedition-ready vehicle that's dead-reliable and no computer to give you issue, and it'll drink most fuel you give it.

Looking back at my 3F-E conversion, for the same amount of $ I could have done the 2H conversion and I'd then have the benefit of not only the diesel but the cool factor. Don't get me wrong I'm happy but from a purely economic standpoint, it was more $/effort than I was expecting.

 

[ChuckB]

Scott,

Thanks for the info! The more I learn the more I am having to reconsider my options. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to purchase anything at the moment, but thank you for informing me. I'll be sure to let everyone know when I seriously start my search.

The Keep It Simple Stupid approach (KISS) is the route that I am trying to go with this. The 2H doesn't sound like a bad idea...will it handle some boost? I am glad that I have plenty of time and am not rushing into this decision because there are a lot of things to consider. I definitely do not want to regret my decision...

How does that 3FE in your 40 do on the highway and on the trail? I imagine that it goes pretty well.

 

[Hltoppr]

Ok, I suppose I'll chime in here...

The 3FE...great, fantastic overall motor. No complaints, it just runs and runs, and never breaks...

Perfect for Mexico and where the speed limit allows for comfortable 55mph cruising.

Kinda tough to do a sustained 80mph though.

-H-

 

[Pskhaat]

The 2H doesn't sound like a bad idea...will it handle some boost?

Yes, that's the 12H-T motor. The reason I continue to state the 2H is (again) because of it's convenience for transmissions H41/H42/H55f/A44x/etc. Here is a quote from Andre Shoumatoff who is quite a LC diesel guru:

> Toyota 2H & 12H-T Diesels
>
> The 2H is a 6 cyl diesel engine, inline fuel pump, 100% mechanical
> other than EDIC control, and glow plugs and related accessories.
>
> The 2H puts out about 110 hp @1800 and 177 ft/lbs of torque somewhere
> near 3000-3300 RPMs. It has a very high rev scale compared to a 2F
> Gas engine, it actually redlines higher than a 2F engine and has a
> similar feel. Because it is not turbo charged, it is easily affected
> by altitude, likewise when upgrading to larger tires, you must pay
> very close attention to axle gearing, like with all diesels.
>
> Dimensions wise, it actually has almost identical dimensions to a 2F
> and weighs roughly the same as well.
>
> They were available in North America for only two short years, in
> Canada in 1986 and 1987. They are found with either a 5 speed manual
> transmission (H55F) or an automatic, the same one (A440F) found in
> FJ62s. It was considered to be "the replacement" for the 3B engine
> which was available in Canada through 1985 in 40, 60, and 70 series
> models.
>
> The 12H-T is the factory turbo charged version with major differences
> being piston skirt cooling for the turbo, and a different, direct
> injected head and accompanying parts. Otherwise it has the same block
> and bolt pattern as the 2H. It was never available in the USA, and
> was available in HJ61s from Europe and in other countries. The 12H-T
> puts out roughly 130 HP and about 230 ft/lbs of torque, almost
> identical to a 2F gas engine to get an idea.
>
> Overall, all H series engines are very smooth, quiet, do not rattle
> much, and are a great application for a truck in my opinion that has
> not been heavily modified. Adding a turbo to a 2H is a wonderful
> addition, even though the 2H never came with piston skirt cooling.

How does that 3FE in your 40 do on the highway and on the trail? I imagine that it goes pretty well.

Unfortunately have not had the 3fj40 on the trail yet, but on the road, it drives as though if Toyota continued to make the 40 series, the 3F-E would definetely have been the engine. It has the power of a V8 (in the 40) but with the characteristics of the old 2F.

 

[ChuckB]

Hltoppr,

How do you think 65-70mph would be with the H55f? The problem here in Socal is if you aren't going atleast 75 you are probably going to get run over!! I don't need to go that fast but 55 is probably not going to cut it for safety reasons.

Scott,

Thanks for the info that is good to know. I'm going to do some more research in this department. The diesel is still an option that I am not totally ruling out yet. The only real issue that I have read about with the Toyota diesels is parts. Obvoiusly, you don't need them very often, but still something to consider.

 

[60seriesguy]

Hltoppr,

How do you think 65-70mph would be with the H55f? The problem here in Socal is if you aren't going atleast 75 you are probably going to get run over!! I don't need to go that fast but 55 is probably not going to cut it for safety reasons.

Scott,

Thanks for the info that is good to know. I'm going to do some more research in this department. The diesel is still an option that I am not totally ruling out yet. The only real issue that I have read about with the Toyota diesels is parts. Obvoiusly, you don't need them very often, but still something to consider.

I ran a 3F with an H55F and 33+ tires at 65-80 MPH for long trips without any problems, for over 10 years (the first 5 years didn't couldn't, there weren't many places in Venezuela where you could go 80 MPH for any significant period of time).

The problem with Toyota diesels, besides parts, is *COST*. Initial investment is pretty high. I debated this for MONTHS, spent many a night crunching numbers. I just couldn't justify paying $10K in parts alone and then have the truck sidelined because the non-US widget has to come FEDEX from Sidney City Toyota in Australia for $200 (plus shipping, another $80).....happened more than once with the old 3F.

 

[Hltoppr]

Chuck,

I can't really say...my last manual trans cruiser was an FJ60 with a small block...no problems with power there!

I'd take Henry's input as to what will happen...with the right rig it would be worth a shot!

(psst....mine may be for sale here in a bit.... :lurk: )

-H-

 

[ChuckB]

Henry, thanks for that info. I don't see the need right now to go above 33's, so I will keep that in the back of my mind. I share your concerns about the parts of Non-USA cruisers. I wish that my smog restrictions weren't so tight so that I could go with a 4BT and we woudn't be discussing other options...

Hltoppr, I don't like to advertise this, but my 60 with a 2F has seen 80 probably once or twice, but never again. That was in my slightly younger days. Obviously, that speed could never be maintained for any length of time.