66mpg, 14" Ground Clearance, 3.2s 0-60mph, 1,800lb Payload, 826ft/lb torque, true 4x4, 66mpg.......

[dwh]

Huh. Looks like they've beaten their previous record. Now they're up to 25%.

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2018/03/27/sharp-hits-25-09-efficiency-on-full-size-hjt-cell/

 

[brp]

Some people are asking about my experience in cold weather/snow with an EV, so, In my experience EVs are better in cold because:

-You can pre-heat the cabin from your phone, while in a garage or not, or leave it to the smart preconditoning feature.

-The heat comes on very quickly, should you not choose to pre-heat.

-The traction control seems to be much better, the level of control an electric motor has is much more than a combustion engine. (Tesla vs TRAC Tacoma)

-The EVs seems to handle better in slippery condition do their generally better weight distribution and lower COG.

-They always start, don't idle rough, need to warm-up, the fuel doesn't gel, basically a whole list of issues that may or may not exist depending on gas/diesel/modern/old etc.

The one draw back, which is not exclusive to EV's is you may experience reduced range/effiency.

If you are making a single long trip, the range hit will be minimal, nearly zero if the battery is pre-heated while plugged in, something that may or may not be available. If you are making many short trips, where the battery goes through many heating/cooling cycles, you'll see a meaningful hit. This case is not exceedingly releveant for me anyway, because even at 75% efficiency I'm still totally within the range needed for a day of short trips.

To those asking about charging on solar panels out in the woods, that is most likely not feasible. If you want numbers I can crunch them for you but you're probably looking at many days to possibly weeks depending on the scenario.

I've driven a Tesla for 4 years and 70k now, through MN winters. I've owned a Tacoma, which is a popular vehicle here. It was a 2011 4x4 4.0. They are different vehicles for different purposes, obviously. But my Tesla, which is kind now dated as a 2014, just works, the electric drivetrain is far superior in almost all cases, yes there are outlying situations. A Tacoma with 400 miles of range and 175kw DC charging, which is roughly what the Rivan appears to be, would simply be an amazing vehicle.

 

[Dalko43]

I'm not going to discount all of your experiences with the Tesla, but I have to dig into the statements below:

-You can pre-heat the cabin from your phone, while in a garage or not, or leave it to the smart preconditoning feature.

-The heat comes on very quickly, should you not choose to pre-heat.

Is this a feature that you need to be plugged in for? Because it seems like that pre-heat feature might be yet another cause for degraded range in the cold. FWIW, you can also pre-start and warm up your internal combustion engine vehicle....it's called remote start.

-The traction control seems to be much better, the level of control an electric motor has is much more than a combustion engine. (Tesla vs TRAC Tacoma)

-The EVs seems to handle better in slippery condition do their generally better weight distribution and lower COG.

I'm sure having individual electronic motors at each wheel is nice for snow/icy roads. But for the truly difficult terrain, nothing beats a mechanical traction device (whether it be a locker or limited slip) in terms of reliability, durability and capability. And torque vectoring and traction control with center differentials is a very common feature on many modern ICE vehicles.

-They always start, don't idle rough, need to warm-up, the fuel doesn't gel, basically a whole list of issues that may or may not exist depending on gas/diesel/modern/old etc.

Uhmm...when was the last time you had a modern Toyota 4x4 have trouble starting up in the cold? I have started my 4.0l V6 4runner in -30F weather (when it sat outside, unplugged) and it started...it wasn't a pretty start, but it started nonetheless.

How often do you start your Tesla in -30F weather without any plugin assistance? I'm really interested to know how these batteries fare in that type of weather without the aid of a wall charge.


I'm not trying to marginalize the advancements and potential of EV technology. But let's be honest with ourselves here: EV's are currently a lot less proven compared to ICE when it comes to overland, 4x4 and remote travel applications.

Maybe that will change at some point. But the EV technology in cars (sedans crossovers) still has a lot of room for improvement before its ready for implementation in the 4x4/offroad market segment.

 

[Steve_382]

I'm not going to discount all of your experiences with the Tesla, but I have to dig into the statements below:




Is this a feature that you need to be plugged in for? Because it seems like that pre-heat feature might be yet another cause for degraded range in the cold. FWIW, you can also pre-start and warm up your internal combustion engine vehicle....it's called remote start.



I'm sure having individual electronic motors at each wheel is nice for snow/icy roads. But for the truly difficult terrain, nothing beats a mechanical traction device (whether it be a locker or limited slip) in terms of reliability, durability and capability. And torque vectoring and traction control with center differentials is a very common feature on many modern ICE vehicles.



Uhmm...when was the last time you had a modern Toyota 4x4 have trouble starting up in the cold? I have started my 4.0l V6 4runner in -30F weather (when it sat outside, unplugged) and it started...it wasn't a pretty start, but it started nonetheless.

How often do you start your Tesla in -30F weather without any plugin assistance? I'm really interested to know how these batteries fare in that type of weather without the aid of a wall charge.


I'm not trying to marginalize the advancements and potential of EV technology. But let's be honest with ourselves here: EV's are currently a lot less proven compared to ICE when it comes to overland, 4x4 and remote travel applications.

Maybe that will change at some point. But the EV technology in cars (sedans crossovers) still has a lot of room for improvement before its ready for implementation in the 4x4/offroad market segment.

FWIW, from the Tesla Model S manual. Maybe it works below that temp though.

Temperature Range Do not expose Model S to ambient
temperatures above 140° F (60° C) or
below -22° F (-30° C) for more than 24
hours at a time.

 

[Todd n Natalie]

Older article, but good information on different fuels here: https://www.greencarreports.com/new...gen-here-they-are-the-two-fuels-of-the-future

Interesting read for sure.

 

[DaveInDenver]

To those asking about charging on solar panels out in the woods, that is most likely not feasible. If you want numbers I can crunch them for you but you're probably looking at many days to possibly weeks depending on the scenario.

There's no probably about it. If someone is thinking along the lines of the typical portable 200 W panel you're talking several hundred to a thousand hours of daylight to recharge. A Telsa Supercharger station is capable of 72,000 W. That's almost twice what a 200 A domestic service can deliver. Even a 2 kW generator is going to take a few days.

Full EVs only make sense if you can recharge from the grid. To recharge a 180 kW-hr bank (400 miles range) from a 2 kW generator is going to take something like 15 to 20 gallons of gasoline. Which had you just carried 20 gallons of gas is about how far you'd have gone in the first place in a Tacoma. But consider that if you carried 20 gallons of spare fuel in that Tacoma you could go probably from Grand Junction to the Dollhouse and back.

I think the main thing is emergency reserves like that. Range is what it is. Actually 400 miles is really good compared to 300 or so I get in my Taco. However a 5 gallon can gets me another 75 miles in 2 minutes. A 5 gallon jerry can is about 167.5 kW-hr of energy to give perspective. So the Rivian is really only capable of being 200 miles in the backcountry from the nearest charging station unless you bring along a significant back up plan.

 

[Martinjmpr]

Full EVs only make sense if you can recharge from the grid.

^^^^^ What he said.

EVs make a LOT of sense in the city. In fact, if it wasn't for the need for AWD I would have considered an EV for the wife's vehicle. That vehicle rarely leaves town and in the year we've owned it, has never been parked overnight anywhere EXCEPT in our garage. With a nice charging station at home it would work perfectly as an around-town vehicle for us.

IMO the best way for EV's to benefit "overlanding" is that people use EVs for around town travel (which, for most of us, is most of our actual driving anyway) and that leaves more fossil fuels for the overland trips.

Does anyone make an all-electric SUV with AWD that's reasonably priced? I think they would sell like crazy. As I said, I would totally consider one for our around-town driving. Let the Suburban sit during the week and drive the EV for trips to the grocery store or to work.

 

[Clutch]

There's likely to be some fierce fighting in the electric car/truck/suv market over the next decade or so. I'm just going to sit on the sidelines until a clear winner emerges.

Those who make the wrong choice early on are going to end up with a $50,000 vehicular equivalent of a BetaMax VCR.

Small start-ups are not confidence inspiring.

Have been keeping an eye on Alta Electric motorcycles. But they ceased operations in October. So anyone who has bought a bike is pretty much SOL when you need motor/battery parts. Everything else is shared across brands...so should be ok with the other components.

https://electrek.co/2018/10/18/alta-motors-closing-operations/

^^^^^ What he said.

EVs make a LOT of sense in the city. In fact, if it wasn't for the need for AWD I would have considered an EV for the wife's vehicle. That vehicle rarely leaves town and in the year we've owned it, has never been parked overnight anywhere EXCEPT in our garage. With a nice charging station at home it would work perfectly as an around-town vehicle for us.

IMO the best way for EV's to benefit "overlanding" is that people use EVs for around town travel (which, for most of us, is most of our actual driving anyway) and that leaves more fossil fuels for the overland trips.

Does anyone make an all-electric SUV with AWD that's reasonably priced? I think they would sell like crazy. As I said, I would totally consider one for our around-town driving. Let the Suburban sit during the week and drive the EV for trips to the grocery store or to work.

One of my dirt bike buddies does that. has Nissan Leaf for a townie car, and a F350 for the travel rig. Not sure how his Nissan does in the snow though...he is in Northern AZ they just got a bunch I should ask.

 

[Clutch]

Some people are asking about my experience in cold weather/snow with an EV, so, In my experience EVs are better in cold because:

Does the EV need to be plugged constantly in cold weather? Example being, if it is fully charged. Can it sit for a week or so outside in the cold with a bunch of snow on top of it not plugged in? Will the batteries loose charge/range?

In other words, can you use and abuse it like a gas truck? Can I go back country skiing/yurt camping and leave it at the trailhead for a week, come back and expect it to get me back home?

 

[brp]

Does the EV need to be plugged constantly in cold weather? Example being, if it is fully charged. Can it sit for a week or so outside in the cold with a bunch of snow on top of it not plugged in? Will the batteries loose charge/range?

In other words, can you use and abuse it like a gas truck? Can I go back country skiing/yurt camping and leave it at the trailhead for a week, come back and expect it to get me back home?

EVs experience "vampire drain." They lose range while sitting idle. It really depends on the make and settings you choose. I'd say my car loses about 4 miles/day when parked out in the cold and not plugged in. When warm, it looses maybe 1 or 2 miles/day. In cold they spend some energy keeping the battery warm.

 

[Clutch]

EVs experience "vampire drain." They lose range while sitting idle. It really depends on the make and settings you choose. I'd say my car loses about 4 miles/day when parked out in the cold and not plugged in. When warm, it looses maybe 1 or 2 miles/day. In cold they spend some energy keeping the battery warm.

Thanks.

Was wondering how long you can let them sit. I run a lithium ion battery in my motorcycle...it will drain over time. Cold starts can be slow, but there is a trick you can do to heat it up.

 

[Amp34]

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/33-range-loss-in-cold-winter-conditions.106072/

The last three are hypothetical points based on the curve projected from the actual data.

Cold is a major issue, but at the same time it's an issue that only really comes into it's own when going below 0 C. A 40% range loss isn't uncommon in the cold. How much of a problem it is depends on where you live and where you travel. Going to Baja, not so much, going through the midwest US/Canada during the winter and it is an issue.

There are also issues with towing, far more so than an ICE vehicle - a loss of 40-60% is pretty common for the Model X with a small trailer. It may not be as much of an issue with the RT1 due to the less aerodynamic shape.

BEV's are likely to replace ICE in most application, but like all technologies they are not without their issues and they will not be viable for every application. I'm personally looking forward to a BEV truck with a 6' bed, at a similar price to an ICE truck. It's going to take a while, but the Rivian is certainly a good start.

 

[SexyExy]

I always love these articles about future vehicles and the claims they make......none have ever come close to what the first round of marketing claims. Lets face it, these guys need investors so they will say pretty much anything. MIT grads need investor dollars just as much the next guy. Here is what I've found out about electric vehicles.....most of it gleamed from staying awake in high school physics.

Electric vehicles are at their best for short runs and where stop and go driving allows them to use their regenerative braking. Once you get over 50 mph and stay there, the aerodynamic drag makes the efficiency of the electric option less economical. Stop and go driving is one of the main reasons our petrol/diesel trucks get terrible mileage. But EV have huge advantage here. Trying to make an electric vehicle a non stop long haul or expedition type vehicle is actually laughable.

If you really want the most efficient (from a $$ standpoint) vehicle for long range travel, you cannot beat a modern 2, 3 or 4 cylinder turbo diesel vehicle. These vehicles have been proven to be more economical than electric vehicles on long range open highway driving. Example?.....see what is a popular economy car in Europe and the mpg they return. Modern diesel and gas motors are so clean burning that the ecological argument is out the window in my opinion.....there is no free ride with energy. Something was burned or consumed to make those electric amps that are getting pumped into your EV's battery.

Using solar panels to recharge your overland vehicle in the morning?........you couldn't carry enough solar panels to make this happen. You would literally die of thirst waiting for the car to get charged up.

Now here is the BIGGEST problem nobody wants to address regarding EV vehicles, and please understand, I'm a huge supporter of these vehicles but only under the right conditions (commuter cars, short route delivery vans, stop and go driving, etc) Even if we were to magically be able to make electricity in unlimited supplies for less cost than we do now, we do not have a way to move that many electrons that quickly. We don't have problems yet since there are so few EV's, but our electrical grid wouldn't be able to support even if 25% of our vehicles went to electric overnight. It doesn't matter what time of day or night you charge the cars, you just can't move that much energy (heat really) through the cables and wires we know have in place in the USA. To upgrade our grid to be able to handle a substantial increase in EV's would cost trillions of dollars. Has anybody had to have the local utility company run new underground power lines from the tie in point on the street to a new house construction 100 yards away......it can cost $50k to $100k depending on the utility company. So if the utility companies are going to upgrade their grids to handle this much amps/heat, who do you think is going to pay for it? They will drastically increase the cost of kilowatt hours to a level much higher than what we pay for our petroleum we now run our cars with. So in my opinion the limitation of the grid is a huge problem and we haven't even factored in where or how we are going to make more energy assuming we can upgrade the grid. Nobody wants coal, diesel or nuclear plants near them.....and as far as I can figure, there is nothing else that can produce the mega amounts of energy that converting to EV's will require.

The amount of energy (BTU's) in a gallon of gasoline or diesel is so huge that trying to replace it with solar, wind, hydro, etc is just not possible. IIRC, all our wind farms in the USA produce less than 10% of all our energy. Electricity cannot be stored, so trying to build a huge electrical grid on wind power can be dicey since they are not consistent in their energy production. Solar is an option but again, it just doesn't produce enough given the cost to build compared to the other options. The efficiency of a modern petroleum based engine is pretty damn good.

Assuming that we get the grid up to snuff and somehow can make the electrical power needed to supply EV's and the rest of our society with electricity, the only way to make EV's work in grand scale is with replaceable power packs. When you need to recharge, you pull up to a station and an automated system removes your existing battery pack and replaces it with a fully charged battery. This would require that EV manufactures make their vehicles with standardized size and hookup for the batteries but it would be as easy as having a vehicle that uses a specific number of battery packs. A small economy car might use one power pack where as a UPS type delivery van would require 4 power packs. Then the depleted power packs would move into the "charging" building where there is a super high amperage charging system and some sort of super cooling setup to allow the power packs to be recharged quickly. The faster you recharge the power packs the more heat is generated. Figuring out a system to super cool the process would allow battery packs to be recharged very quickly compared to even Tesla's superchargers they have in use now. It makes more sense to have "refueling" stations where battery exchanges can happen rather than trying to fast charge you car at your house.

My favorite EV design is what locomotives use....a petroleum powered generator that powers electric drive motors. The Chevy Volt uses a small gasoline engine to run the electric motor if the battery was too low to drive the vehicle. In most day to day driving, you would be 100% EV. If you were going to make a longer trip or needed to recharge the battery, the gasoline motor would literally allow you to not have range anxiety since you could run 100% petrol if needed. In very typical GM fashion, they had very crappy marketing with the Chevy Volt. And of course, now they are killing off the model. The Volt should have been the darling of the eco friendly crowd but instead Toyota did the right marketing and the Prius kicked the Volts butt. RIP Chevy Volt....it wasn't your fault.