A camper worth waiting for

[flossandfredsadventures]

I figured this would be as good a place as any to start my build thread! I'd like to start by saying a massive thanks to all the members here that have heavily contributed to this forum which will now (hopefully) save me from asking all the usual questions. My girlfriend and I have been living in the UK for the past few years (we're Australians) touring in a campervan to begin with and now a motorhome, but with every trip we venture further off the beaten track. We now feel we're at the point where we would be happy if this was all that our trips were made up of, and our 2wd motorhome just isn't going to cut the mustard (rather unfortunate as it averages 8L/100km!).




We plan to complete one more trip through Scandinavia next summer then return to Australia to buy a used 4x4 Canter and custom build a camper with its first big trip being to drive the Pan American highway. I'm a CNC programmer/machinist for a Formula One team in the UK and grew up in central Queensland on a farm. I feel I have the engineering knowledge and base required for this rather large task. I love the layout of the Australian Earthcruisers so I'd say I'll be drawing from that for inspiration (although rather than the lovely sleek moulded fiberglass, mine will look like a fridge with a poptop!). I'll be building it out in QLD as so far I've been amazed by how many of the major suppliers are there.

Now for the questions and a tie in to the title -

I have underlined my actual questions so you can skip past the waffle!

If the perfect truck came up (preferably in QLD as that's where all my family is) I would be tempted to buy it while still in the UK (have family and mechanics inspect it for me) to save waiting for the right one when I return. I'd like to keep the base truck cost down as much as is reasonable but if a more expensive later model doesn't need some of the modifications that a cheaper older model does then obviously I'd choose the more expensive option. So would I be correct in saying that if I bought a model with the 4D33 it would almost certainly need a turbo added, whereas a 4D34 with its turbo may meet my needs as standard? Is there another option besides these two?

It would be nice to choose a truck that will handle the high sulphur of South America but in reality only a very short period of its life will be spent here. I've seen www.tuckstruck.net traveling in the region for quite some time now with his Euro 5 Daily so with some care and planning I think that these comparatively low tech Canters should be able to handle it too. I've seen it mentioned that anything up to 2007 hasn't got the heavy emissions regulators so at the moment that's what I'm looking for.

Chances are that all the budget will allow is an FG649/639/637 (6th Gen), but are there advantages to the newer model (is it FG84?) that would mean some modifications wouldn't be necessary? Or are they all relatively similar over the years apart from the changes in engines?

Also, is there any difference between those models 649,639,637? I see the headlights and grill are slightly different on some but is that it?

I've often seen it mentioned on here that the spring mounted sub frame is the way that the Rural Fire Service trays are mounted. This is the sort of truck that I was actually looking at to purchase. Would the chances be high of that system already being in place for me to utilise with my camper build? I believe it would be the route that I would go down whether they were already there or not. Does anyone have any experience with the condition of these 20 year old low mileage shorties?



I believe that the SWB will be what I will select for the build and have the camper box at 3600mm with an angle chopped out of the back to keep the departure angle reasonable. I drew the box on a 2780mm wheelbase on CAD and it didn't look like too much overhang to me (and was within the 60% rule). Are all the SWB of the older generation 2780mm? Is it the same for the newer FG84?

I'll hardly be breaking new ground with the build so I've found it very helpful to read about everyone's systems on here as well as in the usual 'Build your own Overland Camper' books (I find it rather amusing that there's a Haynes manual for it!). I will hopefully do a fairly trick LifePo4 setup using individually purchased CALB cells and building up an 800Ah pack to run as much as possible on 12/240V in conjunction with hydronic diesel heating. That's a long way down the road and a part of the build that I find a lot less daunting than deciding on the truck and getting the subframe and camper box built!

Hopefully I haven't repeated too much of what has already been answered on the forum but I would really appreciate any comments you could spare the time to offer.

Mark

 

[Bris31]

Welcome to the forum.
You requirement of Canter 4x4 is about the same as I have got now (FG649 2003 SWB).
The main advantage of SWB it can derated to under 4500kg and driven with car license, and no yearly pit inspection.
FG649 are from 2002 - 2007 and comes with 3.9L, stock turbo, inter-cooler, electric windows, SWB is 2780mm, 12V etc.
FG637 prior to 2002, 4.2L, without turbo (can be added later), manual windows and I believe mostly 24V.
Otherwise many specs are same with FG649 & Fg639

For fridge type box, panels are FRP, 2 major players in Brisbane area are Styromax & Vanglass (Yandina).
For spring mounted subframe, the one I know is in Acacia Ridge (Brisbane) but there are others too who can make these to the specs.
My setup is very simple, for your other requirements there are many gurus here who can chime in.
Good luck.

 

[flossandfredsadventures]

Thanks Bris31, your reply is much appreciated. I read through your whole build the other day and was left rather impressed. I too will have mine derated to under 4500kg so I don't need to return in the middle of a trip for an inspection.

I hadn't seen yet that the FG637 was 24V. Not a big deal but probably another vote in favour of the FG649.

Have you heard of this crowd in Toowoomba? http://www.bac.net.au/composite/fibre-composite-caravan-and-motorhome-panel-and-tooling-manufacture/ They could be another option for me as I'll most likely be building the box in Toowoomba.

Where did you end up with your weight? And how long was the box that you put on the back? I think the proportions look good.

 

[Bris31]

Glad to see you liked the build .
I haven't heard of Toowoomba FRP manufacturer but looking at their website, they seems to have quite big operation and variety of products. I went for Vanglass (Yandina) panels because of good deal, help and using their tools while I and misus assembled/glued the panels on the subframe at their workshop.
My truck/camper weighs less than 4450kg (2 people, one spare, 125L fuel, 150L water, food, fridge, 2 batteries, windows, door etc).
Box size is 3.6m(L) x 1.90m(W) x 1.92m (H) - with 23mm thick panel. Box only weighed about 250kg (at 23mm thickness panels are 5.5kg/sqm).
Given the wheelbase at 2780mm, 3.6m long box would be the maximum legal length (1.6m rear hang). I decided to keep spare in the rear storage under the bed so had all the 3.6m length for the living area. With spares hanging at the back, living area would be smaller by at least 40cm.

 

[SkiFreak]

In my experience, if you want to keep the weight under 4500kg, and still have a decent amount of carrying capacity, you will probably have to be skilful in your choices of what you do and don't fit to the truck.
Things like a bullbar, which are a nice addition for front end protection, are definitely not light, especially if fitted with a winch. How many spare wheels you carry and if you have steel or alloy rims is another decision to make.
There is also the amount of fluids, both fuel and water, that will be carried. A general rule of thumb, at least for 4x4 travel in Australia, is to have enough fuel for 1000km, which equates to about 200 litres for a FG.
All of these sorts of items can make a noticeable difference, but given your background, I fully expect that you would be quite mindful about weights on a vehicle.

 

[flossandfredsadventures]

It's certainly nice to have some choice when it comes to the panels then. I'll weigh up the pros and cons of each and make a decision. I have some friends over here at the moment (@collectingbliss on Instagram) that got their panels from Styromax and they seem pretty happy with them too. Bit wary of just paying the extra money for the name though.

That's great to hear that yours is 3.6m. I figure if it's good enough for EC it'll be good enough for me... It's also the length of the box on our current motorhome, although that has a walk through and a longer wheelbase. I might look at mounting the spares in the style of the Global Warrior to keep it all legal.

In regards to the weight, I appreciate that it will be tricky to keep it under the magic 4500kg but I think its worth aiming for. I have a heavy rigid truck licence so that's not the issue, the main problem is the annual inspections. As I understand it, I should be able to register the vehicle in WA using the address of a family member to circumvent this but as of yet I don't know of anyone having done this.

My plan would be to set everything in the truck up for 6t (wheels, tyres, suspension etc.) then de-rate for the overseas parts of our journey. Upon returning for the 'Big Trip' in Oz I would likely restore it to its original GVM to add the extra fuel and water required for the more remote parts of our country. Having said all that, setting up a global expedition vehicle and the componentry that that requires is inherently heavy and the 4.5t may not be achievable.

And yes Owen, after a few years in this industry I'm just about sick of the sight of near unachievable light-weighting pockets in titanium components to keep weight down!

As far as the pesky ADRs are concerned, what needs to be signed off and plated on my build? My current understanding is it's the super single wheels and the sub frame and that there'll also be a checklist of items required in the camper (including a pass through for QLD) for it to be registered as a 'Truck Based Motorhome'. Anything else that I'm missing? If I decided to do the crawl through myself and cut into the cab, would that need to be certified too? I know people say 'if you don't need one, don't have one' but my girlfriend and the dog will appreciate it.

Bris, do you find that the 23mm panels give adequate insulation? Some of the American members of this forum have been using much thicker panels for their colder winters but I'm wondering whether that's necessary on a build that I'm trying to keep light and low profile.

Thanks again for your replies gentlemen, they will always be well received.

 

[trackadda]

It's certainly nice to have some choice when it comes to the panels then. I'll weigh up the pros and cons of each and make a decision. I have some friends over here at the moment (@collectingbliss on Instagram) that got their panels from Styromax and they seem pretty happy with them too. Bit wary of just paying the extra money for the name though.

That's great to hear that yours is 3.6m. I figure if it's good enough for EC it'll be good enough for me... It's also the length of the box on our current motorhome, although that has a walk through and a longer wheelbase. I might look at mounting the spares in the style of the Global Warrior to keep it all legal.

In regards to the weight, I appreciate that it will be tricky to keep it under the magic 4500kg but I think its worth aiming for. I have a heavy rigid truck licence so that's not the issue, the main problem is the annual inspections. As I understand it, I should be able to register the vehicle in WA using the address of a family member to circumvent this but as of yet I don't know of anyone having done this.

My plan would be to set everything in the truck up for 6t (wheels, tyres, suspension etc.) then de-rate for the overseas parts of our journey. Upon returning for the 'Big Trip' in Oz I would likely restore it to its original GVM to add the extra fuel and water required for the more remote parts of our country. Having said all that, setting up a global expedition vehicle and the componentry that that requires is inherently heavy and the 4.5t may not be achievable.

And yes Owen, after a few years in this industry I'm just about sick of the sight of near unachievable light-weighting pockets in titanium components to keep weight down!

As far as the pesky ADRs are concerned, what needs to be signed off and plated on my build? My current understanding is it's the super single wheels and the sub frame and that there'll also be a checklist of items required in the camper (including a pass through for QLD) for it to be registered as a 'Truck Based Motorhome'. Anything else that I'm missing? If I decided to do the crawl through myself and cut into the cab, would that need to be certified too? I know people say 'if you don't need one, don't have one' but my girlfriend and the dog will appreciate it.

Bris, do you find that the 23mm panels give adequate insulation? Some of the American members of this forum have been using much thicker panels for their colder winters but I'm wondering whether that's necessary on a build that I'm trying to keep light and low profile.

Thanks again for your replies gentlemen, they will always be well received.

you no longer need a pass through in qld

 

[flossandfredsadventures]

That's great to know, thank you. That may facilitate doing the modification at a later date if it is proving to be difficult (which it will!).

 

[Bris31]

Mark, we have traveled in winter in subzero outside and find pretty cold inside in the night. We manage it by warm clothes and old style hot water bottles in the bed. Not sure how much will be difference with thicker panels without heater. I believe US/UK winters would be colder than here. In summer we open all the windows and a fan does the rest.

In Queensland, camper truck under 4500kg is registered as Campervan (like in our case). And abover 4500kg it is registered as Camper Truck. As mentioned earlier, it doesn't have to have a pass through.

Brij

 

[flossandfredsadventures]

Thanks for your insights Bris. As I mentioned in my first post I will likely have hydronic diesel heating installed so perhaps the 23mm panels will be sufficient. We don't actively seek cold weather travel but timelines might mean that is a reality. With the planned high capacity lithium system, the luxury of DC air-con might be an option further down the line as well. Being a pop top though I may need to consider the depth of the rear mounted condenser into my rear overhang if I'm at all serious about installing it at some point.

Is anyone aware of the potential cost or downsides of extending the wheelbase slightly (apart from breakover angle and turning circle)? The chassis would likely not need extending for my needs. It would simply mean I could have the tires on the back, keep the space inside the camper and have more room for tanks when running at 6t GVM. Or will you say 'don't be mad, just buy the MWB to begin with...'

 

[SkiFreak]

Or will you say 'don't be mad, just buy the MWB to begin with...'

Yep.
A lot less hassle that way.

BTW... in my opinion a diesel air heater is a better option than a hydronic heating system.
Simpler to install and much easier to control cabin temperature, not to mention that it would be more efficient too.

As I understand it, I should be able to register the vehicle in WA using the address of a family member to circumvent this but as of yet I don't know of anyone having done this.

Yes, this is definitely a viable option for less hassles in Oz if you have a 6T truck, but for overseas travel my understanding is that being under 4500kg is much simpler.

 

[flossandfredsadventures]

not to mention that it would be more efficient too

Interesting you should say this as I was thinking the hydronic would be more efficient overall as the engine would be keeping the cab warm while you were driving in the winter (admittedly you could run the diesel heater while driving along too but it would still be burning that little extra fuel). I was thinking I'd also plumb in things like heated towel rails as they struggle to dry in the cooler months as well as underfloor heating. I would also hope to install my electrics and lithium pack between the chassis rails but fully insulated and accessible from the hallway in the living area, meaning I'd run the lines nearish to the lithium to keep up its ability to be charged in sub zero conditions. My other thought was that for the times that we're at high altitude if there was a failure with the diesel heater we'd have dual backups in the way of the engine coolant heat as well as an electric heater (last resort).

I certainly hadn't ruled out the diesel-only heat but from what I'd read so far I assumed the hydronic system was the preferred method. I shall continue my research on that. Don't need to decide for a while.

Just to confirm, by hydronic I mean plumbed into the engine coolant supply as well as heated by something along the lines of a diesel fired Espar system. I understand that they are much more complicated and time consuming to install but no more expensive than a combination hot water/heating diesel only system. Please correct me if I'm wrong there too.

Just did another quick sketch on CAD and as Bris said the box would have to be around 3400mm to be right on the limit of the 60% rule with 37"x12.5" tyres on the back. Even keeping the 3.6m box and mounting the wheels in the Global Warrior style will prove tricky and only give around 400mm of flat storage space under the bed. Perhaps a step up in my camper box with this sort of a system could be the solution?



In the end it might just come down to what comes up for sale at a reasonable price over the next 12 months. It will be tight on a SWB but with careful planning I believe I could get on everything I want.

Bris, did you have to get anything else inspected/certified before you were able to get your truck all legal on the road?

Also, I've been very impressed with how everyone has been replying so far. I've been a member of some fairly niche automotive forums before but usually my threads are mostly made up of me talking to myself!

 

[SkiFreak]

The concept of running hydronic heating is sound, and your idea of having the engine as a backup for heating is viable too.
The latest diesel air heaters are altitude compensating, as far as I know, so that should not be an issue. Given the humungus LiFePO4 setup you are considering using, a ceramic electric heater could easily be your backup.
As for a heated towel rail, which I also considered in my build... the coolant runs at around 80 degrees C, which is very hot for a towel rail and could easily result in burns if touched. And, as I said, it is harder to maintain a constant temperature in the cabin with a hydronic setup, as it is not that easy to use a thermostat to control the temperature, as is with the diesel air heaters.

The efficiency issue is that you are running a boiler and a few fans. If the hydronic system is too thermally efficient, the boiler will continually cycle, using more electrical power at each start. Also, boilers prefer to run continuously and if they do the start/stop thing too much it is very likely that they will carbon up quite quickly.
The challenge with a hydronic system for a motorhome is to make it sufficient thermally inefficient, so that you rarely get to the 80 degree point where the boiler will cycle off. If you can do that, then the boiler should run continually, but in doing so, it will probably get too hot in the cabin.

So, that is why I changed my own design, which has a hydronic setup installed, to using an diesel air heater to do the cabin heating.
I kept the hydronic setup, simply because I had already installed it, but it is only used for heating the Isotemp water heater now. The water heater is also heated via the engine.

 

[flossandfredsadventures]

That seems rather logical and a design consideration that I'll keep at the front of my mind. Which model of diesel air heater did you choose and does it have altitude compensation as an option? Just checked your website and as far as I could see you only mention your hydronic setup. Is it possible to program hysteresis into the boilers to go on and off at temperatures that you specify? Say, off at 60deg, on at 80deg?

 

[SkiFreak]

Is it possible to program hysteresis into the boilers to go on and off at temperatures that you specify? Say, off at 60deg, on at 80deg?

I'm not that smart...

Given that I have no plans to travel outside of Australia, altitude compensation is not a concern for me, so it did not factor into my decision making process.
I have not bought the heater yet, but I will most likely get a Webasto unit.