AMP-L-START compatible with Battleborn lithium batteries?
- Thread starter jeegro
- Start date
On second thought, is the Magnum good enough to do away with my CTEK 2500 altogether? I could sell the CTEK to cover the cost of the magnum, and then never have to manually charge the AGMs again.
Any other devices like the Magnum I can compare to?
And can the magnum be plugged into the alternator side of the BCDC? I would think so, it's the same connection... just checking. I plan to do a 4 AWG cable from starter batt to BCDC (~8 feet)
Any other devices like the Magnum I can compare to?
And can the magnum be plugged into the alternator side of the BCDC? I would think so, it's the same connection... just checking. I plan to do a 4 AWG cable from starter batt to BCDC (~8 feet)
DiploStrat
Expedition Leader
OK, now you have lost me.
The Magnum Smart Battery Combiner is merely a voltage sensing switch, sometimes called an intelligent relay - it connects and disconnects based on the voltages you set. It is not a charger. You put it between two batteries and, when set up properly, it will close the circuit when the voltage of either battery is above a set point and open when either battery drops below a set point. Its normal function is to allow you to charge a second (camper/house/accessory) battery from your starter battery. It will also prevent either battery drawing down the other.
The Magnum SBC (and the BlueSea ACR and all of the rest) are especially useful when you have a second charge source, typically shore or solar, connected to your camper battery. Now a voltage sensing relay will connect the batteries when the sun is shining or when you are plugged in. And this will maintain your starter battery.
So, recap:
-- The REDARC will charge your camper battery from your starter battery.
-- You should be able to use a Magnum SBC to bypass the REDARC going the other way so as to maintain the starter battery when you are not driving. I could consider adding a switch so that this circuit would only be turned on when the truck is parked for an extended period. (As noted, you don't need to worry about your starter battery if you are driving every month.)
I can't find a CETEK 2500 in the catalog, so I don't know how you plan to use it.
The Magnum Smart Battery Combiner is merely a voltage sensing switch, sometimes called an intelligent relay - it connects and disconnects based on the voltages you set. It is not a charger. You put it between two batteries and, when set up properly, it will close the circuit when the voltage of either battery is above a set point and open when either battery drops below a set point. Its normal function is to allow you to charge a second (camper/house/accessory) battery from your starter battery. It will also prevent either battery drawing down the other.
The Magnum SBC (and the BlueSea ACR and all of the rest) are especially useful when you have a second charge source, typically shore or solar, connected to your camper battery. Now a voltage sensing relay will connect the batteries when the sun is shining or when you are plugged in. And this will maintain your starter battery.
So, recap:
-- The REDARC will charge your camper battery from your starter battery.
-- You should be able to use a Magnum SBC to bypass the REDARC going the other way so as to maintain the starter battery when you are not driving. I could consider adding a switch so that this circuit would only be turned on when the truck is parked for an extended period. (As noted, you don't need to worry about your starter battery if you are driving every month.)
I can't find a CETEK 2500 in the catalog, so I don't know how you plan to use it.
Oops - it's a CTEK 25000 Multi US: https://www.amazon.com/CTEK-56-674-Automatic-Battery-Charger/dp/B0045F3SGY
OK I'll back her up... I'm confusing myself too. So the goal is to charge and properly maintain the starting AGM's using my solar setup (which is a REDARC BCDC 40amp ---> Lithium) in a set and forget fashion with minimal complexity. And sell the CTEK 25000.
Now my reasons for wanting this are debatable, but let's just assume I need to make this happen. How would you do it?
some concerns...
From your explanation, it sounds like any single sensing / one way battery combiner like the above will do the trick (as long as the voltage connect point is > 13.4v), is that the best way to do this? And it sounds like if I ever added a lithium shore charger, the single sensing battery combiner will do double duty and take care of the AGMs when the lithium is solar charged or shore charged.
OK I'll back her up... I'm confusing myself too. So the goal is to charge and properly maintain the starting AGM's using my solar setup (which is a REDARC BCDC 40amp ---> Lithium) in a set and forget fashion with minimal complexity. And sell the CTEK 25000.
Now my reasons for wanting this are debatable, but let's just assume I need to make this happen. How would you do it?
some concerns...
- Confusing the BCDC by combining the batteries (BCDC would essentially see an alternator running, even though it's not). I think this is okay, because the BCDC prioritizes solar
- Victron Cyrix-Li-ct (benefit: designed for higher voltage combining, i.e. lithium)
- AMP/TRIK-L-START (con: not designed for lithium, )
- Magnum Smart battery combiner: (benefit: user programmable voltage)
From your explanation, it sounds like any single sensing / one way battery combiner like the above will do the trick (as long as the voltage connect point is > 13.4v), is that the best way to do this? And it sounds like if I ever added a lithium shore charger, the single sensing battery combiner will do double duty and take care of the AGMs when the lithium is solar charged or shore charged.
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Here's a mockup of the wiring:
Components
Combiner was originally connected to the LVD, but then I realized the combiner is like an LVD in of itself, so I moved the connection to primary load cutoff switch.
Components
- REDARC BCDC
- LifePo4
- Victron Smart LVD BatteryProtect
- Voltage sensing switch / battery combiner
Combiner was originally connected to the LVD, but then I realized the combiner is like an LVD in of itself, so I moved the connection to primary load cutoff switch.
"Designed for lithium" means nothing good IME.
Just get a user-custom adjustable DCDC like Sterling BB, and let that alone filter all charge inputs to the LFP bank.
Unless you have an old-school high-output alternator you want to fast charge with, that can accept modding to use a Balmar MC-614 regulator.
But the Sterlings can be stacked too, 60A per unit I believe.
Just get a user-custom adjustable DCDC like Sterling BB, and let that alone filter all charge inputs to the LFP bank.
Unless you have an old-school high-output alternator you want to fast charge with, that can accept modding to use a Balmar MC-614 regulator.
But the Sterlings can be stacked too, 60A per unit I believe.
DiploStrat
Expedition Leader
None of this is hard. The attached drawing is a bit crude and lacks fuses, wire gauges, etc. But you can figure it out.
The REDARC (or any other B2B) goes between the starter battery and the camper battery. Use proper gauge of wire and fuse at each battery terminal. Done.
Now, assuming that we are going to park for a few months at a time, figure out a trickle charge for the starter battery.
You can use a TRK-L-CHARGE or a Magnum SBC. (Sterling Power also sells battery maintainers.) If you are worried about a feedback loop, simply add a kill switch on your dash. Leave it off when traveling, and turn it on when the beast goes into storage. You can even make it automatic if you use a normally closed relay. (The relay will open when the engine is running so the maintenance/trickle circuit works only when the engine is stopped.
N.B. The trickle circuit doesn't need to be 4 AWG. 10 AWG is probably enough.
AM Solar has been one of my favorite companies in this field. They are now a mostly Victron shop, but they sell your Battle Born battery and their website is a wealth of information. See more here: https://amsolar.com/
Two more options:
-- Carry a portable jump starter, or,
-- Simply bypass the REDARC with a heavy cable and a switch or relay. Dead starter battery, simply close the circuit and start from your camper battery. (You can do the same thing with a jumper cable.
As they say, "Speed is money - how fast do you want to go?"
Hope this is useful. (And that there aren't any id skids!
)
The REDARC (or any other B2B) goes between the starter battery and the camper battery. Use proper gauge of wire and fuse at each battery terminal. Done.
Now, assuming that we are going to park for a few months at a time, figure out a trickle charge for the starter battery.
You can use a TRK-L-CHARGE or a Magnum SBC. (Sterling Power also sells battery maintainers.) If you are worried about a feedback loop, simply add a kill switch on your dash. Leave it off when traveling, and turn it on when the beast goes into storage. You can even make it automatic if you use a normally closed relay. (The relay will open when the engine is running so the maintenance/trickle circuit works only when the engine is stopped.
N.B. The trickle circuit doesn't need to be 4 AWG. 10 AWG is probably enough.
AM Solar has been one of my favorite companies in this field. They are now a mostly Victron shop, but they sell your Battle Born battery and their website is a wealth of information. See more here: https://amsolar.com/
Two more options:
-- Carry a portable jump starter, or,
-- Simply bypass the REDARC with a heavy cable and a switch or relay. Dead starter battery, simply close the circuit and start from your camper battery. (You can do the same thing with a jumper cable.
As they say, "Speed is money - how fast do you want to go?"
Hope this is useful. (And that there aren't any id skids!
)John, Diplo, thanks for the help.
After doing some more thinking - this time simpler thinking - I'll do a heavy duty switch or manual solenoid + small switch hidden outside the vehicle somewhere. I'll wire the security camera to the lithium. That way I won't have any loads on the starting batt. And in the extreme rare case the starter batt dies and I can't get inside the truck, the hidden switch will link the batteries and give me enough juice to open the doors and crank it.
This is a lot simpler and keeps the house electronics as isolated as possible from the vehicle.
Once in a blue moon I'll hook up the CTEK charger to charge, or if I need to run my diagnostic scanner
Redarc put out a simple wiring diagram for this (though the SBI12 is a bit overkill for this)
After doing some more thinking - this time simpler thinking - I'll do a heavy duty switch or manual solenoid + small switch hidden outside the vehicle somewhere. I'll wire the security camera to the lithium. That way I won't have any loads on the starting batt. And in the extreme rare case the starter batt dies and I can't get inside the truck, the hidden switch will link the batteries and give me enough juice to open the doors and crank it.
This is a lot simpler and keeps the house electronics as isolated as possible from the vehicle.
Once in a blue moon I'll hook up the CTEK charger to charge, or if I need to run my diagnostic scanner
Redarc put out a simple wiring diagram for this (though the SBI12 is a bit overkill for this)
The annoying thing with the above setup is an additional long cable run from the start battery to the solenoid, and two extra fuses. I guess I could piggyback off the Start-->BCDC cable, but the possible amp draw is wildly different (40A for BCDC charging, possibly hundreds for cranking off the lithium battery)
Am I over thinking it again?
Am I over thinking it again?
DiploStrat
Expedition Leader
Not at all. You use all of the same cables. The only new cable is just enough to bypass the DCDC and add in your switch or relay. But you are right, because this is a starting cable, it does need to be heavy enough to carry a starting load. Look at my diagram - it may make it easier to see that the additional cable need not be very long. BUT - the main cable run may be larger than required for the BCDC as it will carry a full starting load. (The BCDC won't mind the lower resistance.) (My previous truck had a pair of 0 AWG cables, each some 25 feet long!)
May be easier to imagine it this way. Lay out the heavy starter gauge wiring and then simply add in the BCDC. If you will, the BCDC simply gets connected to the terminals of the relay or switch.
And since you are talking about a relay that will only see only light/occasional use, I would not bother with a REDARC or BlueSea relay, but would rather get one of the relays aimed at the high power stereo crowd. I would get a continuous rated relay, not just a starter relay - least your switch get stuck or should you be inclined to control it with the SBC at a later date.
There are lots of options!
Aw heck, I'd like to avoid a heavy gauge cable run for that rare use case. I just finished taking out 30 pounds of 2/0 gauge cable, haha.
I'm going to give the SBC a go. Worst case I may need to isolate the Starter to BCBC circuit whenever the SBC is on - using the normally closed relay as you mentioned. The way I understand it, with the SBC on, it's effectively connecting the lithium battery directly to the alternator input on the BCDC, and that can't be good..? The BCBC would want to charge the lithium battery.. using the lithium battery.
I'm going to give the SBC a go. Worst case I may need to isolate the Starter to BCBC circuit whenever the SBC is on - using the normally closed relay as you mentioned. The way I understand it, with the SBC on, it's effectively connecting the lithium battery directly to the alternator input on the BCDC, and that can't be good..? The BCBC would want to charge the lithium battery.. using the lithium battery.
For myself I would not put in a system that relied on my memory to prevent flattening the Starter.
We're really not talking much money to get automatic open / close based on voltage (charge source active).
Plenty of such units - DCDC also - allow for a remote switch as well when you want to override in exceptional circumstances, but I would not rely on that for normal routine usage.
We're really not talking much money to get automatic open / close based on voltage (charge source active).
Plenty of such units - DCDC also - allow for a remote switch as well when you want to override in exceptional circumstances, but I would not rely on that for normal routine usage.
Agreed, should be automatic
Which part would flatten the starter? The whole setup I'm planning with the Magnum combiner is set and forget, no switches at all. The only question mark is if the alternator to BCDC connection should be open or closed when the SBC is active. I think for the first install I'll hardwire it, observe how it reacts, and if there's a feedback loop problem then I can put in a simple relay to open that connection from alt to BCDC
DiploStrat
Expedition Leader
Let us review the bidding again. Don't make this harder than it is - simply proceed step by step
To charge the camper battery you connect it to the starter battery. Literally the positive terminal of the starter battery. Do not disturb the factory wiring between the alternator and the starter battery - you have no idea what is in there.
If the voltage requirements of the starter battery and the camper battery are the same, decide if you want a manual switch, a key controlled switch, or a voltage sensing or "intelligent" switch. Done.
If the voltage requirements are different, you either adjust the voltage of your vehicle (harder) or use a battery to battery charger (B2B) between the starter battery and the camper battery. (Easier) Lots of brands to choose from, each having different advantages.
Now, how do you maintain the starter battery? First, do you have to? Do you drive at least once a month? If so, no problem. Do you park for months in low temperatures? Then you should probably do something. Options include, a shore power charger/maintainer, an add on solar charger, etc.
If you have an intelligent relay AND, there is a separate charge source for the camper battery (e.g. solar or shore), then the problem is solved.
Most (all that I know of) B2B's are one way devices. That is they take from the starter battery and give to the camper battery. So if you use a B2B then you may want some form of bypass back to the starter battery.
-- Sterling Power and TRK-L-START make simple units. There may be a problem with the voltage points with lithium, but I doubt it as AM Solar sells 'em for their lithium setups. Couldn't be easier.
-- Beyond this, we get more exotic. The Magnum SBC could be used as the switch points can be adjusted.
-- Beyond this you can go for a jump start setup.
In any case, there are lots of ideas in the attached image. I use a very complex, Twisted Sister(tm) set up, that connects a 24v starter battery to a 12v camper bank and vice versa. But for the voltage difference, I would simply use a BlueSea ACR.
Enjoy!
To charge the camper battery you connect it to the starter battery. Literally the positive terminal of the starter battery. Do not disturb the factory wiring between the alternator and the starter battery - you have no idea what is in there.
If the voltage requirements of the starter battery and the camper battery are the same, decide if you want a manual switch, a key controlled switch, or a voltage sensing or "intelligent" switch. Done.
If the voltage requirements are different, you either adjust the voltage of your vehicle (harder) or use a battery to battery charger (B2B) between the starter battery and the camper battery. (Easier) Lots of brands to choose from, each having different advantages.
Now, how do you maintain the starter battery? First, do you have to? Do you drive at least once a month? If so, no problem. Do you park for months in low temperatures? Then you should probably do something. Options include, a shore power charger/maintainer, an add on solar charger, etc.
If you have an intelligent relay AND, there is a separate charge source for the camper battery (e.g. solar or shore), then the problem is solved.
Most (all that I know of) B2B's are one way devices. That is they take from the starter battery and give to the camper battery. So if you use a B2B then you may want some form of bypass back to the starter battery.
-- Sterling Power and TRK-L-START make simple units. There may be a problem with the voltage points with lithium, but I doubt it as AM Solar sells 'em for their lithium setups. Couldn't be easier.
-- Beyond this, we get more exotic. The Magnum SBC could be used as the switch points can be adjusted.
-- Beyond this you can go for a jump start setup.
In any case, there are lots of ideas in the attached image. I use a very complex, Twisted Sister(tm) set up, that connects a 24v starter battery to a 12v camper bank and vice versa. But for the voltage difference, I would simply use a BlueSea ACR.
Enjoy!