Base truck for custom overland build - how big is too big?

[tonydca]

Hey all - I've been lurking here for a while now, and this site is fantastic. Great community with lots of knowledgeable folks and rigs of all shapes and sizes.

I'm progressing from the wishing stage to the planning phase (aka "My wife now thinks building a rig is a good idea".). In this particular thread, I'm looking for input on choosing a base rig on which to build. Maybe some of the more grizzled veterans among you can dispense a few nuggets of wisdom to help point me in the right direction.

The goal is to make a truck with a composite camper box on it. Where I live in British Columbia, Canada, the traditional RV'ing season is short and the local selection of motorhomes if you want to go anywhere other than overbooked RV sites with paved access and power/sewer hookups is pretty marginal. Either the weather is too bad for them, or the roads are too rough. Or both.

The wife and I are too old for extended ground-sleeping and rooftop tent shenanigans, so I'm prepared to trade off hardcore rock-crawling trail capability for larger size with creature comforts. Still - we want to take the road less travelled, with the ability to stay off-grid for 1-2 weeks or more, rain or shine, sun or snow.

I'm not thrilled with the selection of larger N.American rough-duty truck manufacturers; fortunately here in Soviet Canuckistan we can legally import any vehicle more than 15 years old, and some of the all-wheel-drive Mercedes commercial trucks sold in Europe - and seemingly everywhere **except** N.America - have really caught my eye. Although they were never sold here new, they offer not-quite-Unimog levels of off-asphalt capability with (seemingly) much simpler drivetrain components. I have access to competent diesel truck mechanics shops, and Mercedes offers worldwide parts availability, so if something needs work, I'm hoping that I can find someone who can fix anything I can't do myself.

These trucks come in a bewildering array of shapes and sizes, and that's what brings me to this thread. Mercedes offerings range from 3-ton GVWR "Sprinter" vans up to 33-ton behemoths and beyond.

(A brief aside for those not familiar - Mercedes trucks are typically designated by their 3- or 4-digit code representing the max GVWR and engine rating. For example a "1124" is an 11-ton GVWR vehicle with a 240-hp engine).

One example used as build platforms in Europe are ex-fire-service 917 chassis, such as this one - 9-ton max GVWR and a 170-hp 5.9L OM352 diesel:

https://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/overlander-interview-wolf-ilona-ogorek.11983/

Slightly beefier 1124 and 1224 ex-municipal rescue trucks also seem to be popular choices.

But after reading up on what this crazy Aussie built: http://www.robgray.com/ontheroad/wothahellizat/wot2/index.php , I'm not yet ruling out something larger - even a 6x6 monster like this: (Mercedes 2028A 6x6 ex-Bundeswehr in case the link to the ad eventually expires)

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=288163027&damageUnrepaired=NO_DAMAGE_UNREPAIRED&grossPrice=false&isSearchRequest=true&makeModelVariant1.makeId=17200&maxFirstRegistrationDate=2007&maxMileage=300000&pageNumber=2&scopeId=TO75&wheelFormula=WHEEL_DRIVE_6x6&fnai=prev&searchId=376defb7-cf85-fd6c-da70-03e010359825

Naturally a bigger vehicle means bigger living space, greater carrying capacity for fluids, battery packs, bigger roof for solar panels, etc., etc. The 2028A is approx. 9 metres long overall, and has a nice 6.1m platform already in place to mount a box, plus extra room between it and the cab. All good stuff. (by comparison, the 917 overland rig with the composite shell camper is 7.3 metres long, and with that large rear overhang it is seemingly at the limits of its capacity)

But everything comes with trade-offs. Bigger means heavy! (although spread over 6 wheels, the 2028A weighs approx 11 tons completely empty - more than the previous 917 overland rig with camper and fully-loaded). Fortunately even the more remote areas where I live are accessible by Forestry Service Roads ("FSRs") which can handle fully-loaded logging trucks up to 63 metric tons, so weight itself shouldn't be an issue, and cargo trucks travel to even the most remote towns. Turning circles and getting stuck, however...

Big also means thirsty (that 280 hp on the 2028a comes from an enormous 14.6L diesel V8 - torquey and reliable, but I'm guessing 30-35 L/100 kms on a good day).

I understand that there is no such thing as the perfect rig for every and all conditions and situations, but for those of you out there with plus-sized rigs or who have spent time around them - any thoughts off the top of your heads? How big is too big? Anything I have completely failed to take into account?

As always - thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to read and reply!

 

[tdferrero]

Congratulations on moving on to the next step, this is where it gets expensive quickly! As for size, it all depends on where you want to go, how much room you really need/want, and how much you want to spend. The Mercedes/Unimog chassis has an option for everyone, but you've noted quite a few of the common tradeoffs. If you're not looking to do serious rock climbing, then a Sprinter van up to a smaller Unimog will get you most places, given you don't plan on tackling the tight trails of the American East. The first thing you'll want to establish is what size you are comfortable living in and where you'd want to go for an extended period of time. Off the beaten path can mean a lot of things. Would you be happy with a, comparatively, smaller living space (like a van), but give it an open plan to do most of your activities outside; or would you want to utilize the massive bed space of a Unimog and turn it into a second home (which is also possible with a van). Earth Roamers and the like have gone some pretty incredible places for their size and capabilities, but so have Toyota Corollas.

 

[Peter_n_Margaret]

From the perspective of going to more places, smaller is better.
In Oz, there are risks of wider wheel tracks too. The "standard" vehicle is the Toyota 79 series. Vehicles (like smaller Mogs) have a tendency to pick up lots of tyre stakes that the Toyotas left behind. They also hit a lot more trees than narrower, lower rigs.
About 5T seems to be the minimum weight that includes some living comfort with sufficient fuel and water to stay bush for decent periods. Over 7T is typically bigger and higher which brings its own set of problems.
For more living space in a smaller package, check out the forward control vehicles like Canters and the like. They do need super single wheels and decent suspensions though.
The Sprinter type vans are not really designed for anything harder than a gravel road. Their purpose is to retain traction on icy European black top. And clearance is compromised.
For comparison, we are 6m overall total length, 3.05M high and 2.16M wide, 6T with 280L of water and 280L of water and gear for a month in the bush. Bed is cab over and always made up.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

 

[DiploStrat]

Really depends on where you are going and how you want to live.

-- If you are driving both ways 'round the world, then the big old military truck may be a good idea as you will be taking years, driving slowly, and want the load carrying for a roomy camper.

-- If you are basically camping in North America, get a modern truck. You will thank yourself with every kilometer you spend on the highway. And make no mistake, there are lots of long highways in North America. Two to three week trips, as opposed to multi-month or year trips, tend to imply some long drives to get to the back woods.

Having had a Tiger and now owning an XPCamper on a MB 917 (see more at our website) I would note:

The MB, while not hard to drive, is far behind the Chevrolet on the highway. The MB was built as a Euro urban delivery truck, so it is way underpowered which makes it slow and noisy. Drive less than three hours a day, not a problem - more than six, a real PITA. The cab over gives great visibility and is an oven in the sun. The extreme short wheel base makes it maneuverable, but a hand full in slick mud or snow. (Front end and back end want to swap.)

There are tradeoffs of course, but doing it again for North America/Europe/North Africa, I would build on a two ton North American truck.

YMMV.

EDITED TO ADD: Should you find a 900 series MB in Europe, the eight lug model, please be in touch BEFORE you import. Dual to single rear wheel conversion on these beasts is a challenge and there is a dealer in Germany who sells excellent wheels at a good price. You may be able to save a bit on shipping. http://www.expeditions-lkw.de/LKW-Zubehoer/

 

[Victorian]

We imported a 4x4 Sprinter cab chassis into Canada a couple years ago. Feel free to reach out if you like to find out what NOT to do... There is also a customer of ours that has imported a big Benz from Germany. He really loves it! The extra interior space (length/width) you are getting with a bigger truck is pretty cool. Although I like bigger trucks, I got tired of "climbing" into our 4x4 sprinter. As you can see in the pictures below, there are several stairs to climb. The risk of a "faceplant" is real!
As for North American travel, I agree with the statement that driving something that can keep up with fast traffic is very important. 110km/h capability is a must. Our Sprinter was ok at 100km/h but going through Salt Lake City for example was a game of chicken. Not fun!

Operating costs: Tires, fuel and parts can ad up fast. Finding a mechanic that is willing to work on your truck is easy while based at home. On the road it's another story.... I was always worried that our German spec Sprinter will break down in the middle of nowhere. For example: there is no shop around Moab that is willing to work on Sprinters. Think about the amount of vans going through that area!
In any case, we decided on a NA Ford Transit chassis for all of the above reasons. It is of course not a off road chassis, but I'm sure we can still get to amazing places!

 

[tonydca]

A lot of valid ponts. One nagging issue in the back of my mind - I rarely hear of folks wishing their rig was smaller - where I'm from they call it "2-foot-itis": that ongoing desire for an ever-larger rig.

I suppose it'll always come down to capacity vs. capability: i.e. bigger rigs mean you have more goodies, but sooner or later you'll reach a point where you can't go somewhere because you're just too big. I just have no sense of where that point would be - perhaps one never knows until it hits you in the face.

Diplostrat, I notice that as you and your wife have gotten older, your choice of vehicles has also grown larger. I'm past 50 myself, so the idea of spending longer periods of times in a small uncomfortable space isn't going to fly with me or the missus. I'd love to hear more detailed specs on your current 917 rig - overall dimensions, wheelbase, etc. (couldn't find any on your website)

I just can't otherwise seem to find a decent all-wheel-drive domestic (N.American) truck for a larger chassis, other than US military trucks. Example, Acela trucks more modern "harsh-duty" vehicle lineup (http://www.acelatruck.com/trucks) are based around US surplus light/med-duty cargo trucks, which I feel would present their own set of challenges for repairs/maintenance.

This German fellow gives a good breakdown of many of the truck chassis available in Europe: (he has done a video series with a coach builder in Germany - very informative, altough I do not zie Deutsch sprechen):

LKW Basisfahrzeug Vorstellungen - Herman unterwegs

Du willst ein Allrad Reisemobil aufbauen? Auf LKW Basis? Du findest hier eine wertvolle Infosammlung und LKW Vorstellungen als Artikel und in Videos!

herman-unterwegs.de

Folks have also pointed out rightful concerns that since the MB cargo trucks were never sold in N.America, finding service shops might be a challenge. Diplostrat how has your experience been with the 917?

I have an old Dodge pickup that I have taken in for the occasional shop work, and although most shops have never actually worked on one of these old-timers before, the trucks setup is simple enough that they can work on it without issue - in fact they frequently comment how much easier it is to work on than modern vehicles. I was hoping that a similar analogy would hold for larger truck repair shops with an older MB cargo truck, as their mechanical simplicity seems to be a selling point.

MB points out worldwide parts shipment as a key feature of their business, and I'd be planning to have any import/export truck thoroughly serviced in Europe before I brought it over this side of the pond.

I have to admit - for the longest time I had my heart set on a Unimog, but the aforementioned video series and others like it made me wonder if Unimogs trade-off extra cost and that uppermost 10% of off-road capability for a rougher ride and smaller camper capacity (for a given size). Plus their fantastic offroad capability comes at an increased mechanical complexity, which might make finding service challenging.

And Victorian, the photo of the three vehicles (transit/Mog/MB) that you posted seems like a case in point re:camper box size for the various rigs.

The large box on the back of that 1824 looks like the bees knees. I'd loved to know more details about that truck and the box you guys made up for him, if you're OK to pass it along.

Thanks again everyone for all of the ongoing input - at this point I can't get too much information.

 

[Lovetheworld]

Well, can't you fit it all in a Mercedes Sprinter 4x4? Perhaps the 5 ton version, and choose the biggest engine.
That will be much more drivable and less consuming than a real truck, and it will still do fine once you leave the tarmac roads. And it will be serviceable.
The Unimog is on the other end of the spectrum.

A sprinter (or equivelant) will be big enough to fit a seating area, a shower, and a fixed bed, and you don't have to climb a ladder.

People usually want bigger, which can become a problem. I have spoken to people who hate to change their wheels when there is a flat tire, because it is so big and heavy, you can hardly handle it.
Or like a friend with a Unimog. He can put on bigger tires, but then they don't fit in the original space, they have to go on the top, and all becomes very difficult very soon.
If you like to find yourself in the forest roads or on mountain tracks, yeah smaller is better.

People who actually live in the truck and sold their house. Yeah go for it, good idea.
If you are just taking longer-than-regular-holiday trips off the beaten path and season, I think it is all a big waste.

 

[Victorian]

Well, can't you fit it all in a Mercedes Sprinter 4x4? Perhaps the 5 ton version, and choose the biggest engine.
That will be much more drivable and less consuming than a real truck, and it will still do fine once you leave the tarmac roads. And it will be serviceable.
The Unimog is on the other end of the spectrum.

A sprinter (or equivelant) will be big enough to fit a seating area, a shower, and a fixed bed, and you don't have to climb a ladder.

People usually want bigger, which can become a problem. I have spoken to people who hate to change their wheels when there is a flat tire, because it is so big and heavy, you can hardly handle it.
Or like a friend with a Unimog. He can put on bigger tires, but then they don't fit in the original space, they have to go on the top, and all becomes very difficult very soon.
If you like to find yourself in the forest roads or on mountain tracks, yeah smaller is better.

People who actually live in the truck and sold their house. Yeah go for it, good idea.
If you are just taking longer-than-regular-holiday trips off the beaten path and season, I think it is all a big waste.

In North America you can't pick and chose on the chassis size for the Sprinter. There is basicely just different wheel bases with the same engine and slightly increased load ratings available, that's it.

 

[Victorian]

A lot of valid ponts. One nagging issue in the back of my mind - I rarely hear of folks wishing their rig was smaller - where I'm from they call it "2-foot-itis": that ongoing desire for an ever-larger rig.

I suppose it'll always come down to capacity vs. capability: i.e. bigger rigs mean you have more goodies, but sooner or later you'll reach a point where you can't go somewhere because you're just too big. I just have no sense of where that point would be - perhaps one never knows until it hits you in the face.

Diplostrat, I notice that as you and your wife have gotten older, your choice of vehicles has also grown larger. I'm past 50 myself, so the idea of spending longer periods of times in a small uncomfortable space isn't going to fly with me or the missus. I'd love to hear more detailed specs on your current 917 rig - overall dimensions, wheelbase, etc. (couldn't find any on your website)

I just can't otherwise seem to find a decent all-wheel-drive domestic (N.American) truck for a larger chassis, other than US military trucks. Example, Acela trucks more modern "harsh-duty" vehicle lineup (http://www.acelatruck.com/trucks) are based around US surplus light/med-duty cargo trucks, which I feel would present their own set of challenges for repairs/maintenance.

This German fellow gives a good breakdown of many of the truck chassis available in Europe: (he has done a video series with a coach builder in Germany - very informative, altough I do not zie Deutsch sprechen):

LKW Basisfahrzeug Vorstellungen - Herman unterwegs

Du willst ein Allrad Reisemobil aufbauen? Auf LKW Basis? Du findest hier eine wertvolle Infosammlung und LKW Vorstellungen als Artikel und in Videos!

herman-unterwegs.de

Folks have also pointed out rightful concerns that since the MB cargo trucks were never sold in N.America, finding service shops might be a challenge. Diplostrat how has your experience been with the 917?

I have an old Dodge pickup that I have taken in for the occasional shop work, and although most shops have never actually worked on one of these old-timers before, the trucks setup is simple enough that they can work on it without issue - in fact they frequently comment how much easier it is to work on than modern vehicles. I was hoping that a similar analogy would hold for larger truck repair shops with an older MB cargo truck, as their mechanical simplicity seems to be a selling point.

MB points out worldwide parts shipment as a key feature of their business, and I'd be planning to have any import/export truck thoroughly serviced in Europe before I brought it over this side of the pond.

I have to admit - for the longest time I had my heart set on a Unimog, but the aforementioned video series and others like it made me wonder if Unimogs trade-off extra cost and that uppermost 10% of off-road capability for a rougher ride and smaller camper capacity (for a given size). Plus their fantastic offroad capability comes at an increased mechanical complexity, which might make finding service challenging.

And Victorian, the photo of the three vehicles (transit/Mog/MB) that you posted seems like a case in point re:camper box size for the various rigs.

The large box on the back of that 1824 looks like the bees knees. I'd loved to know more details about that truck and the box you guys made up for him, if you're OK to pass it along.

Thanks again everyone for all of the ongoing input - at this point I can't get too much information.

Send me an email through our website and I can get you dimensions for that Unimog and the 1824. The Unimog was a bit tight inside (smaller than the Sprinter camper), the 1824 is VERY spacious.
As for parts:
There are many online shops in Europe that can get you parts cheap and fast. I used these guys: https://www.autodoc.de/autoteile/in...-t-pritsche-fahrgestell-903/17060-311-cdi-4x4 . Because prices are reasonable, I bought everything that "could" crap out. I was glad I did! One day, my family was already sitting in the sprinter heating out to go camping, the power steering pump snapped. This could have certainly ruined our vacation. Because I had a new one in the truck, we where on the road just two hours later! With the Sprinter I also went to the MB parts department at the local dealership. They pulled up the VIN number and supplied me with oil and fuel filters. It actually blew me away that they also had the correct serpentine belt in stock. Should mention that our type, model sprinter was never sold in North America! For big MB trucks you will need to order from Germany, the dealerships won't be able to help you.

 

[billiebob]

I used to spec trucks, mostly for regional hauling. The first consideration should be what, how much weight, will you be adding. Then pick the chassis with the correct capacity. A 9ton chassis seems way overkill for an RV. Any truck is comfortable when loaded but less comfortable at 50% capacity. I'd pick something with a compiant suspension and no more frame than I needed to carry the load.

 

[DiploStrat]

A lot of valid ponts. One nagging issue in the back of my mind - I rarely hear of folks wishing their rig was smaller - where I'm from they call it "2-foot-itis": that ongoing desire for an ever-larger rig.

Diplostrat, I notice that as you and your wife have gotten older, your choice of vehicles has also grown larger. I'm past 50 myself, so the idea of spending longer periods of times in a small uncomfortable space isn't going to fly with me or the missus. I'd love to hear more detailed specs on your current 917 rig - overall dimensions, wheelbase, etc. (couldn't find any on your website)

I just can't otherwise seem to find a decent all-wheel-drive domestic (N.American) truck for a larger chassis, other than US military trucks. Example, Acela trucks more modern "harsh-duty" vehicle lineup (http://www.acelatruck.com/trucks) are based around US surplus light/med-duty cargo trucks, which I feel would present their own set of challenges for repairs/maintenance.

…

These folks will give you chapter and verse on smaller is better, with over 55 countries to back it up: http://www.travelin-tortuga.com/Travelin-Tortuga/index.html

In our case, the bigger was largely accidental. I don't know the dimensions of our XPCamper other than 23 feet in length, basically the same as the Tiger. It is, perhaps, a foot wider and the short wheelbase was an accident of the truck that the original owner imported - I would have preferred a couple of feet longer for stability. Stability in the mud/snow, not a longer camper. Frankly the biggest advantage over the Tiger is the floor plan, the dinette allows both of us to put our feet up, something we could not do with the "L" couch in the Tiger.

We would have preferred a full camper when we were younger and, indeed tried to buy a 4x4 camper and looked at the Blazer Chalet back in the day. Couldn't afford it at the time.

Ford, Chevrolet, and RAM all make two ton trucks would would be perfect for a ten foot, or 15 foot with cabover, camper. An Acela would put you back in the 50 mph range with ghastly fuel prices.

 

[Joe917]

Parts for Mercedes Trucks can be ordered from Pacific Power Group in BC. Hanns Mross in Abbortsford is also a Unimog, MB mechanic and parts supplier. The Mercedes 4X4 trucks are full timer vehicles. you can get remote and stay there comfortably. you will not want it to race up to Alaska and back in 2 weeks, you will want take months. Personally 6x6 is too big and some of the longer 4X4 wheelbases are not maneuverable enough.

 

[Alloy]

A lot of valid ponts. One nagging issue in the back of my mind - I rarely hear of folks wishing their rig was smaller - where I'm from they call it "2-foot-itis"

We've been looking for something (smaller) that we can use for travel/explore trips.

I've found 80% of BC back roads/sites can be accessed with a SRW 4x4 pick up/camper van size vehicle. Our (family of 4+dog) 35' trailer is twice the size of a pick up/camper. It works but is too big to travel/explore but we went with it after finding out we loved being out rain, snow or shine. It is great for extended park & explore trips and for the short cold days of winter. The extra space provides winter sanity and room to dry/store allot of gear.

 

[MTVR]

We were looking at some of the Mercedes-Benz 8x8 trucks:

Used truck, 15795 ads of second hand truck, lorry for sale

Used truck, 15795 ads of truck for sale on Planet Trucks - Purchase of lorry, Find your second hand truck among a wide range

www.planet-trucks.com

But ended up going with something a little smaller and more sensible:

Go big or go home:

I recently purchased a 2007 Oshkosh MTVR. We intend to convert it into an overland expedition type vehicle and do full-time RV living. For those not familiar with the MTVR, it is an all-terrain military 6x6 truck built for the U.S. Marine Corps, and it is...big- nearly 12 feet tall. MTVR...

www.expeditionportal.com

 

[tonydca]

Some people who are fortunate to do a lot of travelling describe a kind of paradox - the more places you visit and the more amazing things you see, the less likely that any one place will be "perfect" - some part of something you saw somewhere else will have been nicer than where you are right now.

And the same seems true for expedition rigs - no matter what you drive, at some point you will be likely be wishing you drove something else (smaller, bigger, faster, newer, etc.) at that particular moment.

So the wisdom seems to be to design the best you can for what you plan to do, and enjoy what you *are* able to do rather than fret over what you can't.

I'm not in any way disparaging what others do or have done with their rigs - different strokes for different folks, and everyone has different priorities.

For myself in N.America, I doubt I'd be able to thoroughly explore all of Canada and the USA in one lifetime if I tried - just my own province of BC has over 700,000 kms of road, more than 90% of which are unpaved:

Roads in B.C. - Environmental Reporting BC

Roads & Roadless Areas in British Columbia

www.env.gov.bc.ca

Even though this encompasses a lot of trails unsuitable for larger rigs, a large portion are forestry/resource service roads, built for large laden work trucks of 40+ ton capacity. So I think there's plenty to see even if I can't quite fit on the narrowest and twistiest of the trails.

If I'm fortunate to want to drive all the way to S.America at some point in the future, perhaps I'll need to re-visit what I have. Perhaps the price and "hassle" of modifying one's rigs to go further afield is just part of the experience.

Getting back to the here and now for myself, BC weather can be unpredicatble at the best of times. Rain/cold + unpaved roads = muddy/slushy conditions, so the idea of being able to pull over and stop in the middle of nowhere, step backwards into your habitat for the night and carry on the next morning without having to step outside if need be... is very appealing. I learned early on that making/breaking camp was one of my least enjoyable parts of the camping experience. I'm sure others feel differently.

And being able to enjoy empty camping areas outside of the short "normal" camping season is leaning me towards a modern well-insulated composite shell, not so much a "traditional" metal-framed box, nor any kind of pop-up shell with canvas/fabric a-la EarthCruisers (nice though those rigs are). I've never yet seen any kind of fabric shelter that doesn't get skanky and moldy/mildewy after 4-5 days of solid crappy weather.

Speaking of a base vehicle choice: although potentially good value for initial dollar spent, I've generally shied away from the thought of US Military vehicles for feeling that they were purpose-built for one customer - Uncle Sam. And he has *DEEP* pockets if anything ever needs repairs or wears out.

More importantly, though, the guy writing the design spec isn't the buck-private who'll be driving it, so as long as the truck meets specs, not so much push for evolutionary improvement. In the consumer market, the purchaser is often the driver, and if they don't like your product, they'll go somewhere else for their ride. Who's the average soldier going to complain to?

At the other end of the size spectrum, smaller definitely has its advantages at times, but sometimes over-speccing means never having to say you're sorry. I notice that many of the more serious issues that "Tortuga" went through with their 2007 Silverado "Tiger" setup seemed to stem from pushing their Chevy truck to or beyond its typical design limits. Now maybe these breakdowns were just blips on the radar as far as their whole travelling experience goes, but I'm keen on the idea of excess carrying capacity for things like big ugly AGM forklift batteries for your power bank that are heavy as Bejeezus but thrive on abuse and neglect, as opposed to the current trend towards lighter (but more delicate) LiFePO4 units.

Still, as billybob points out - *too* much unladen weight rides like hell - my old Dodge 3/4 ton certainly drives happier with 1,000 lbs of topsoil in the bed. I have recently seen an ad for a horrendously expensive featherweight (for its size) aramid/carbon fiber habitat on the back of a Mog U2450 and thought "the owner probably hates it because I bet it rides like a tank at only 15% of carrying load for that truck".

There's that paradox again.

i don't imagine I'd ever get it "right", but as long as I get a vehicle close enough for me to enjoy - that's probably what I should aim for. This thread is certainly making me re-visit my "projected usage-model" (as the marketing wanks would call it) which is likely a good thing.

I appreciate all of the input up to this point, and if anyone else has any more thoughts or ideas, fire away. If I have any more specific questions down the road, I hope I can reach out to members for more advice.