Baseboard heat or other radiant heat with no fan using espar for heat source.

#47
question..... on cooling the heated water so not to overheat the camper.... makes since to first pump some of that into the engine to warm it..... if that is not enough; or instead, why not just mount a small radiator outside and run it thru that to cool it down some?

Consider as well putting extra heat into storage? as in if you got vehicle engine umph to carry some extra weight.... move some heat into a large container of salt to store the heat. Can use to store engine heat from driving to use later for camper heat at night that way. This way your camper heater (no matter the type) will not be needed as early into the cold night to keep the cabin warm. Granted installing, plumbing, heat controlling etc. of the salt container may not be so easy so my ideas may be overly simple? That and finding a storage vessel that the salt won't corrode may not be a simple task either.

hmm.... guess one could actually heat the fuel tanks as storage as well? Just watch that on some engines the IP uses the diesel fuel as lube... and you get less lube properties when diesel has lower viscosity... and heat would lower its viscosity.... though I do not know how much.
 
#48
question..... on cooling the heated water so not to overheat the camper.... makes since to first pump some of that into the engine to warm it..... if that is not enough; or instead, why not just mount a small radiator outside and run it thru that to cool it down some?
On many installations, the calorifier is run in parallel (or even series) with the heater to absorb extra heat. Same concept as you describe but instead of heating salt or fuel, I think heating potable water makes the most practical sense. Other options should be explored if the calorifier doesn't serve as a large enough reserve for the heat.

As an added bonus if you can control the circuit's coolant pump independently of the heat generating source, it makes it easy to extract heat from the storage bank without cycling on the heater.
 
#49
On many installations, the calorifier is run in parallel (or even series) with the heater to absorb extra heat. Same concept as you describe but instead of heating salt or fuel, I think heating potable water makes the most practical sense. Other options should be explored if the calorifier doesn't serve as a large enough reserve for the heat.

As an added bonus if you can control the circuit's coolant pump independently of the heat generating source, it makes it easy to extract heat from the storage bank without cycling on the heater.
With more and more folk going to instant Colarifier/Water heater.. then that is not an option as the heat storage bank.
 
#50
Won't let me start a new thread or post strange???

testing...... wont let me post or start new thread nor even add what I just wrote into this post.... weird.
 

guidolyons

Addicted to Gear Oil
#52
My 2015 Sprinter/Winnebago Era has hydronic heat and it's not as awesome as I was hoping. It's not a 4 season RV, and I've stayedin it into the low 30s*F (nothing prolonged below freezing) It uses an Alde system (instant hot water, plus a glycol loop for heat) The glycol loop is not tied into the engine coolant. The Alde works great for hot water. I'm less impressed with the radiant heat. There are 2 fairly large finned radiators (looks similar to large baseboard heaters) on each side of the van, in theory the Alde heats the glycol, a thermostat controlled pump circulates the glycol through the van, there are no fans it relies solely on convection. warm air rises, cold air gets warmed. It does "work" but not great, in reality, I end up using a Mr. Buddy portable propane heater. It would definitely be warmer if they ran the glycol loop in the floor as well, and had some sort of fan system. A warm floor would be nice for cold feet. My wife always has cold feet. When you are cold, sometimes you need that blast of warm air.

I think I'm going to add two 12V computer muffin fans on each side and see if that helps circulate the warmer air.

More work, but I might add a Espar Airtronic D2, since pulling the floor to add a glycol loop would be nearly impossible without dismantling the whole van.

Ideally, I'll convince the wife to trade in for a 4x4 Revel or maybe build out my own 4x4 Sprinter.
 
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#53
I have used an espar in -60f temps.. and I was nice and warm...

It's a van, you can walk but a couple of steps... Warm to touch floor is a waste of money... Also, radiant floors take longer to heat a space... And in one door opening, you can suck all your heat out..

Airtronic will fix.. it comes in diesel or gasoline.. I have had both... Both work great... I prefer gasoline, since diesel motors don't work as well in severe cold...
 

bahncamperworks

Supporting Sponsor: Bahn Camper Works
#54
My 2015 Sprinter/Winnebago Era has hydronic heat and it's not as awesome as I was hoping. It's not a 4 season RV, and I've stayedin it into the low 30s*F (nothing prolonged below freezing) It uses an Alde system (instant hot water, plus a glycol loop for heat) The glycol loop is not tied into the engine coolant. The Alde works great for hot water. I'm less impressed with the radiant heat. There are 2 fairly large finned radiators (looks similar to large baseboard heaters) on each side of the van, in theory the Alde heats the glycol, a thermostat controlled pump circulates the glycol through the van, there are no fans it relies solely on convection. warm air rises, cold air gets warmed. It does "work" but not great, in reality, I end up using a Mr. Buddy portable propane heater. It would definitely be warmer if they ran the glycol loop in the floor as well, and had some sort of fan system. A warm floor would be nice for cold feet. My wife always has cold feet. When you are cold, sometimes you need that blast of warm air.

I think I'm going to add two 12V computer muffin fans on each side and see if that helps circulate the warmer air.

More work, but I might add a Espar Airtronic D2, since pulling the floor to add a glycol loop would be nearly impossible without dismantling the whole van.

Ideally, I'll convince the wife to trade in for a 4x4 Revel or maybe build out my own 4x4 Sprinter.
We use the Alde system for lpg installations and have had very good results. It is important that the cabinets are designed with the natural convection in mind so that the air can circulate easily. If the vents get covered at all the heat can't get out. We also run the glycol loop through our floors which also helps extract more heat from the system. The natural convection is extremely nice if done properly, virtually silent operation!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
 
#55
We use the Alde system for lpg installations and have had very good results. It is important that the cabinets are designed with the natural convection in mind so that the air can circulate easily. If the vents get covered at all the heat can't get out. We also run the glycol loop through our floors which also helps extract more heat from the system. The natural convection is extremely nice if done properly, virtually silent operation!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
Silent is great...do you have some pics or videos to show how this works, I am interested... does it work on gasoline or lpg only?


Btw, bahncamperworks, nice campers, nice website.. impressed...
 
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bahncamperworks

Supporting Sponsor: Bahn Camper Works
#56
Silent is great...do you have some pics or videos to show how this works, I am interested... does it work on gasoline or lpg only?


Btw, bahncamperworks, nice campers, nice website.. impressed...
Thanks! I can try to snap a few specific shots to show how the "convectors" are built in to the cabinetry to facilitate efficient heat transfer. The Alde system is log only but we have installed the same in floor heat and convectors with an espar d5 and had equally good results. I believe webasto makes a gasoline fired boiler which could also be installed in place of the Alde unit. Of course it would take a customer control module but that's not too big a deal.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
 
#58
Thanks! I can try to snap a few specific shots to show how the "convectors" are built in to the cabinetry to facilitate efficient heat transfer. The Alde system is log only but we have installed the same in floor heat and convectors with an espar d5 and had equally good results. I believe webasto makes a gasoline fired boiler which could also be installed in place of the Alde unit. Of course it would take a customer control module but that's not too big a deal.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Perhaps you can explain this from scratch... I currently have a gasoline espr forced air heat... works very well, a bit noisy , much from the fan forcing the air, but keeps me warm when cold... even very cold...I have winter camped with the espar at-60f...and lived to tell... and was very warm... worried, but warm...

Please explain how your system is setup and functions, so I can understand. If you can do the same and be closer to silent. Awesome...I want to know...

Thanks in advance
 

guidolyons

Addicted to Gear Oil
#59
/ why are folk putting any of the in floor heating tubes in the floors that fall inside a cabinet??
Bahn campers works can probably explain it better, there are two or three large finned heat exchangers (Alde calls them "convectors") down each side of the van, behind the cabinets. There are vents along the floor and along the top of the cabinets to let the warm air circulate naturally based on convection.

https://www.alde.us/what-is-alde/

http://www.alde.co.uk/design.php#siting

Siting the heating circuit

The correct siting of the heating circuit, the pipes, convectors and radiators, is fundamental to the performance and efficiency of the central heating system. It should be your main design consideration.

Fit convectors/radiators around exterior walls, this creates an even temperature without hot and cold zones.
Fit convectors/radiators under each window. This will reduce heat loss, cold draughts and condensation.
Fit at least the minimum amount of convector/radiator for your living space. This will greatly improve responsiveness (how quickly and adequately the living space is heated) and economy (an overall reduction in fuel consumption).

If your boiler produces 5.5 kW of power but you only have 0.8 kW of convector/radiator, the boiler must run for longer to permiate the living space with 5.5 kW of heat.
Fit ventilation in furniture. Air must be able to flow freely around convectors and radiators, wherever they're sited. Vents should be located in the bottom-front and top-rear of bunks, luton seats, cupboards, etc., so cool air can be drawn under the furniture across the convector/radiator and then rise up the wall behind. The gap between floor and furniture (cool air in) should be at least 40 mm high, and between wall and furniture (warm air out) at least 25 mm wide.

Likewise, vents should be located in the bottom-rear and top-front of overhead louvres to avoid cold and damp pockets along the ceiling.
Fit ventilation in the floor. The regulations governing floor vent area vary according to country and depend on the type of vehicle and number of occupants it is designed for. Consider locating vents under convector/radiator wherever possible.
A correctly fitted Alde aluminium convector output ≈400 W per metre.
diagram_aircirculation.jpg

I wish my hydronic heat was tied into the engine coolant as well (either directly or through a liquid to liquid heat exchanger)
http://roadtreking.com/alde-hydronic-system-works/
 

bahncamperworks

Supporting Sponsor: Bahn Camper Works
#60
/ why are folk putting any of the in floor heating tubes in the floors that fall inside a cabinet??
For the true in floor heat the tubes are only placed under open space floor (ie: no cabinets above) but we do still run hydronic lines throughout the "basement" area under the cabinets as that is where grey and fresh water tanks are usually located. The big idea is to heat soak the whole camper, not just a column of air.