Best full-size 4 season composite trailer?

Treefarmer

Active member
To be the other side of the taking trailers into remote slightly challenging locations. Many of these places will likely see a ban on trailers beyond 4x6 ish in the near future. Why?

Because in some less challenging locations they already have due to number of people frequenting the area and the need to evacuate these areas during fire season. The more people dragging the whole house and kitchen sink into these places the faster we will see restrictions being setup and or enforced.

I don’t see the trend of dragging big boxy trailers into remote places being a good thing for future vehicle accessibility to these regions.
I don't know if the bigger trailers are the only reason, but each year we do see new BLM land closed to all camping. Not only that, but you should plan any trips to CA soon as well. At the rate the CARB is moving, I fully expect my 2012 F350 diesel won't be allowed to enter CA before too long. So we're planning to visit the Mojave National Preserve again sooner rather than later!
 

Raspy

Active member
One of the funniest comments I ever saw on an off road forum was when someone referred to Black Series as "the Jayco of the off road".
On a serious note. The Black Series used to advertise their HQ19 GVWR at 10,000lbs. That always seemed too good to be true based on the quality of the brand. As an example, the X22 comes in at a GVWR of 8,820lbs, and it's a toy hauler. Having owned both, to what would you attribute the difference?

You are talking about the GVWR. The HQ19 empty, weighs about 6,500- 6800lbs. Each swing arm is rated for a max load of 3,000 lbs, but the axles have the same bearings as standard 5200 lb axles. A 10,000 lb GVWR is reasonable, but unlikely to ever be seen in real life. More likely they will be around 8,000 lbs ready to go with water and gear, and they have tongue weight of 800 lbs. with gear. Until a year or so ago, they all came with Load Range C tires, which were barely adequate.

The X22 is not a toy hauler. The XR22 is the toy hauler. They are smaller than a BS HQ19 and no black tank. They have torsion suspension with hydraulic ride height adjustment and a perimeter frame. Compared to the HQ19, the bathroom is much lighter, it has no washing machine, fewer cabinets and less counter space lighter solar, and lithium batteries instead of AGMs. The X has a tankless WH instead of the six gallon tank heater in the HQ. The HQ has two 50 gallon tanks and a 16 gallon drinking water tank. The X has one 30 gallon tank. It also has a smaller dinette and table. It has no Anderson charging system, but simply a plastic cover over the propane tanks, instead of the BS aluminum storage area. it also has a composite floor instead of plywood. They both have aluminum skeleton body frames, but the X is done in a much better way and includes a truss roof design that cannot puddle and offers more room for insulation. It weighs about 5,350 lbs with (2) 5,000 lb rated axles and a GVWR of about 8,800 lbs. It is rated to carry about 3,000 lbs of cargo and is sprung rather stiffly. The same basic trailer can be a toy hauler or a conventional style trailer, depending on the big rear door, bed and battery arrangement, etc. So, the X22 is about 1,500 lbs lighter than the BS. The tongue weight is about 600 lbs with gear.

The Black Series suffers mainly from poor workmanship in Los Angeles, where they are finished after being shipped over from China. But there are also material problems with the interior and electronics. Serious problems. The electronics are no-name Chinese units that no parts are available for. They were cheapened about a year ago and have never improved their quality control. There are tremendous warrantee problems that BS mostly refuses to pay for. Consequently, they are in trouble financially as more and more people find out about it. I have tried to help them, but their arrogance is their own worst enemy. I just had lunch with the owner of Black Series a couple of weeks ago, and once again tried to get his take on the situation and what he intends to do about it. Meanwhile the largest dealer in the US, by a wide margin, dropped them. Now, other dealers are doing the same. New dealers are being signed up that know nothing about them and consequently cannot fix them.

Imperial is made in Wisconsin. They have now dropped the X22 and XR22, in favor of building the X145 and X195, as well as the Roamer 1. These new trailers are a lot different with air bag Cruisemaster ATX suspension, composite walls with no aluminum skeleton, much higher insulation value, much nicer materials in the cabinetry, larger and better solar systems and larger battery capacity. They have compressor fridges that are wonderful. And the Roamer 1 has an induction cooktop. Not sure about the X195 . The 195 has a North South bed and rear bath, like the BS, but it is a much better trailer. The electronics are GoPower.
 

Raspy

Active member
I don't know if the bigger trailers are the only reason, but each year we do see new BLM land closed to all camping. Not only that, but you should plan any trips to CA soon as well. At the rate the CARB is moving, I fully expect my 2012 F350 diesel won't be allowed to enter CA before too long. So we're planning to visit the Mojave National Preserve again sooner rather than later!

There is no reason to exaggerate. I camp in CA a lot and it has not changed in that regard for a long time. I camp on BLM and National Forest land in CA and NV and it is wide open. Alabama Hills have introduced some restrictions, but I haven't seem that anywhere else. We are not going to suddenly see a closed gate at the CA border or closed BLM lands.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
I don't know if the bigger trailers are the only reason, but each year we do see new BLM land closed to all camping. Not only that, but you should plan any trips to CA soon as well. At the rate the CARB is moving, I fully expect my 2012 F350 diesel won't be allowed to enter CA before too long. So we're planning to visit the Mojave National Preserve again sooner rather than later!


CA uses its economic power to influence product change. CA banned 2stroke marine engines sales then we discovered water contamination with gasoline fuel additives and then banned them in our lakes, we got some pretty nice 4stroke stuff right after that. CA has banned cheap dirty generator sales I bet we see some sweet fuel injected small generators soon. If my 9.9 outboard can be fuel injected tiny little system no reason s typical RV generator cant be.

Diesel in heavy applications will not be phased out of CA but they will have whatever modern emissions on them and will enforce US emissions equipment requirements. You don’t need to be in CA to have a state or US GOV go after you for deletion of emissions equipment.

As a side note I like diesels I’ve had a few and own a 1986 Kubota. But light duty uses are dead. Even my Kubota which I love will probably get replaced with an electric unit when its time for a major overhaul.
 
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billiebob

Well-known member
But doesn't an independent suspension smooth out the ride and help keep the trailer from rattling apart over the years? Have you been to central NV? I am asking as i have no experience with anything other then a solid axel.
Independent suspensions are all about reducing unsprung weight so the steering and traction can react faster. There is no steering on a trailer, and traction is a none issue with undriven axles. A live axle trailer with light wheels and tires works fine over washboard. The big issue for ride is always unspring weight. If you run the factory 215 series trailer tires you will ride far smoother than if you run 245 series or bigger/heavier 4x4 off road rubber which matches your tow vehicle.

IF ride counts, build with small light tires.

My neighbour has a JK with a lift and 35s, he hates how rough it rides and rarely uses it. We went for a run in my TJR, fully stock suspension and small/light 185/100R16s vs the 245/75R16s it came with.... he could not believe how smooth it rode. It was a revelation for me too when I first bought those pizza cutters. The ride and fuel economy is incredible and I go everywhere I used to with bigger rubber. .... Fuel economy is another topic. Skinny light tires equal vastly increased range. An extra 95 miles per tank for my TJR.
 
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Alloy

Well-known member
Hello Alloy were you referring to Raspy or myself on not understanding....?

Raspy does know a ton more then I but if done properly with the right size dip tanks galvanized chassis IMAO are the best route for a off road trailer.


Galvanizzed steel is the best bar none. The only reason not to galvanize is to make something cheaper. Boat trailers have been galvanized for decades. I've built (design/fabricated/welded) marine cranes that are galvanized. I've welded through the galvanizing on steel with both rod and wire. It is best to remove it though. Once the welding is done a can of spray on galvanized lasts for decades.

Rhino liner has to! be removed before welding. Removing it is a nightmare to the point burning with a torch and an air chisel is needed.

I would never in my life put Rhino on a trailer frame be it aluminum or steel. In a few years when (not if) the coating fails it will trap water against the metal. The water/road salt mix is there 24/7 so corrosion happens 5X faster. Even cheap paint is better because it will dry out and the rust/blistering paint is easy to see/scrap/fix. Rhino coating is so heavy the corrosion can't be seen until allot of damage is done.

Imperial is making steps in the right direction but they have a ways to go before they are doing 4 Season the way that Total Composites, Bliss Mobil and Boxmanufacktur are. They won't get there until there is zero thermal trasfer on all the aluminum (including the exoskelton) framing.
 

Alloy

Well-known member
Independent suspensions are all about reducing unsprung weight so the steering and traction can react faster. There is no steering on a trailer, and traction is a none issue with undriven axles. A live axle trailer with light wheels and tires works fine over washboard. The big issue for ride is always unspring weight. If you run the factory 215 series trailer tires you will ride far smoother than if you run 245 series or bigger/heavier 4x4 off road rubber which matches your tow vehicle.

Part of traction is braking which a trailer needs. Roads aren't limited to washboard....there's pot holes and washouts too.
 

billiebob

Well-known member
Part of traction is braking which a trailer needs. Roads aren't limited to washboard....there's pot holes and washouts too.
100% of the reason race cars run fully independent suspensions. But since 99% of the vehicles towing a trailer have a heavy live axle..... I doubt the independent trailer suspension makes a measurable difference. Generally independent suspensions support higher speeds.... I am much in favour of slowing down when towing. Especially for washouts and pot holes.

Unsprung weight is easily reduced on either, indpendent or solid axle suspensions.

Lots of mention of cheap leaf springs breaking. I must buy better quality cuz in 40 years and maybe a million miles I have never broken a leaf spring. Altho I have worn out bushings, shacles, hangers and rebuilt them. Rebuilding a leaf spring solid axle suspension is fast and inexpensive. You can find the parts in virtually any trailer repair shop.
 
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Treefarmer

Active member
There is no reason to exaggerate. I camp in CA a lot and it has not changed in that regard for a long time. I camp on BLM and National Forest land in CA and NV and it is wide open. Alabama Hills have introduced some restrictions, but I haven't seem that anywhere else. We are not going to suddenly see a closed gate at the CA border or closed BLM lands.
Maybe it's a bigger problem in AZ and UT. Every year we drive up at least one road on BLM land in AZ/UT that we've camped on in the past and see a new sign saying "Day Use Only" that wasn't there the year before. We try to find at least three or four new areas to camp every year just to stay ahead of the trend. I don't think we're the only ones seeing this trend. I'm not personally concerned anymore than you evidently are, but it's still happening.
 

Raspy

Active member
100% of the reason race cars run fully independent suspensions. But since 99% of the vehicles towing a trailer have a heavy live axle..... I doubt the independent trailer suspension makes a measurable difference. Generally independent suspensions support higher speeds.... I am much in favour of slowing down when towing. Especially for washouts and pot holes.

Unsprung weight is easily reduced on either, indpendent or solid axle suspensions.

Lots of mention of cheap leaf springs breaking. I must buy better quality cuz in 40 years and maybe a million miles I have never broken a leaf spring. Altho I have worn out bushings, shacles, hangers and rebuilt them. Rebuilding a leaf spring solid axle suspension is fast and inexpensive. You can find the parts in virtually any trailer repair shop.
The advantages of leaf springs are that they are cheap and available easily. But that is about it. Fine for a utility trailer to go to the dump, but archaic for a travel trailer. Trailers are different than trucks in that they have lots of household stuff inside, such as microwaves, cabinets, a fridge, stove, dishes, solar panels, multiple batteries, roof air conditioners and can goods. The better they can ride, the less wear on the trailer and it's contents. And yes, it makes a difference. I broke a leaf spring on my boat trailer, a friend broke one on his Bigfoot on the way to a rally, and another friend broke two of them on his Oliver and now will not go on any dirt roads. My Oliver and my Thor toy hauler both tried to vibrate themselves apart on rough roads, where I was not speeding. Part of it, of course, is the small trailer tires that are weak and don't have enough sidewall to allow them to be aired down enough and the fact that straight axles don't have decent shocks, if any at all. Leaf spring straight axle systems have one set ride height variable only by how much weight you put in. Swing arm systems with air bags can ride low on the highway, ride high on the trails, go back to the same ride height regardless of load, level front to back to match the ride height of the truck and be set all the way down at camp. This is also true with the X22 torsion system. The swing arm systems can also level side to side at camp on uneven ground. The X22 system does not need a jack to change a tire as it can simply lift the wheels. The excellent twin shocks on swingarm systems keep the wheels planted much better than without them, which means better braking, better cornering (and I'm not talking about speeding or racing), and less bouncing. My X22 has torsion suspension which is set up to be stiff. That is fine on the highway, but not so good off-road. But it has 33/10.5/R15 tires and hydraulically adjustable ride height. The big balloon tires, when aired down, can easily add about 4 more inches of suspension travel off road. The difference is dramatic. The trailer rides much better. Also, in sand, tiny tires are worthless. The 33s can be aired down and float along without bogging the truck down. Again, it makes a big difference. Finally, unsprung weight is not good. A very heavy part of the system is the cast iron drum brakes, especially the 12" brake models. Second, steel wheels. And third the steel solid axle. Independent swing arm suspension, with aluminum wheels and disk brakes go a long way to improving this. Another benefit is improved ground clearance because there is no axle. Then factor in quality shocks, adjustable if you want them, and the whole system is way better. So yes, I like independent suspension and have seen the benefits of it. Two of my trailers have had it and they were much better than the two previous straight axle systems, in actual use, out in the desert and on mountain trails. I'll never have a straight axle trailer again, and in my opinion, tiny tires are good for utility trailers that make dump runs, but not for camping off road. It may sound like I want to drive fast, but that is not it.
 

Raspy

Active member
Maybe it's a bigger problem in AZ and UT. Every year we drive up at least one road on BLM land in AZ/UT that we've camped on in the past and see a new sign saying "Day Use Only" that wasn't there the year before. We try to find at least three or four new areas to camp every year just to stay ahead of the trend. I don't think we're the only ones seeing this trend. I'm not personally concerned anymore than you evidently are, but it's still happening.

Yeah, that is also a problem at Alabama Hills. But there, the City of Los Angeles owns a lot of the land and that seems to be the problem. In Nevada, where I live, there are no restrictions that I've seen and NV has 48 million acres of BLM and 5.9 million acres of Forest Service land. We are not limited and getting away from people is not a problem. You can look into the future and speculate about what might happen, based on your own fears, but look at Texas now. No BLM lands, but private ranches, from what I gather. And only a few parks, like Big Bend. It is already gone and gone because of private ownership. CA still has lots of areas that are Forest Service or BLM, not State controlled. I prefer not to camp in CA, but it does have some special places.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
There is no reason to exaggerate. I camp in CA a lot and it has not changed in that regard for a long time. I camp on BLM and National Forest land in CA and NV and it is wide open. Alabama Hills have introduced some restrictions, but I haven't seem that anywhere else. We are not going to suddenly see a closed gate at the CA border or closed BLM lands.
LOL
You definitely don’t go the places I do. I have seen many places get trailers banned. Specifically in places where old timers avoided being during whats now called Red Flag conditions without international news notifications. The few trailers pulled into those areas were stock trailers that weren’t worth much often left there for a season and definitely left if a fire was in effect. Yeah that area special ops MT rescue had to fly into and pull 200 people out of. I grew up hiking all of that region and knew it would be a massive mess when I heard they had dozens of big RVs up there.

So yes you might be too young and unaware of the places that definitely have bans on trailers and even vehicle access today thanks to events where basically city folk dragged the house and the Kitchen sink into a place it probably shouldn’t have been.
Just sayn..
I have hiked out the other side of the range twice as a kid first week of July once for a snow storm and once for a wild fire. Today we have 100’s of people dragging RVs into areas in August-November they probably shouldn’t be. Its the RV version of the Flip Flop kid driving to the mountains to see a snow storm?
 

Alloy

Well-known member
100% of the reason race cars run fully independent suspensions. But since 99% of the vehicles towing a trailer have a heavy live axle..... I doubt the independent trailer suspension makes a measurable difference. Generally independent suspensions support higher speeds.... I am much in favour of slowing down when towing. Especially for washouts and pot holes.

Unsprung weight is easily reduced on either, indpendent or solid axle suspensions.

Lots of mention of cheap leaf springs breaking. I must buy better quality cuz in 40 years and maybe a million miles I have never broken a leaf spring. Altho I have worn out bushings, shacles, hangers and rebuilt them. Rebuilding a leaf spring solid axle suspension is fast and inexpensive. You can find the parts in virtually any trailer repair shop.

Ram addresses heavy axles with factory air or the Found On Road Dead people have the option of Liquid Spring or Kelderman.

It's important to make a distinction between spring IS and air IS. Air provides a ride comfort that springs can't match. I've driven the same 60mile section of FSR full of pot holes and after it's been graded. There's a 2 hour differnce. Even taking 2 hrs longer there are still jolts. The FSR would be scatterd with trailers piecs if it wasn't for air IS.
 

Raspy

Active member
LOL
You definitely don’t go the places I do. I have seen many places get trailers banned. Specifically in places where old timers avoided being during whats now called Red Flag conditions without international news notifications. The few trailers pulled into those areas were stock trailers that weren’t worth much often left there for a season and definitely left if a fire was in effect. Yeah that area special ops MT rescue had to fly into and pull 200 people out of. I grew up hiking all of that region and knew it would be a massive mess when I heard they had dozens of big RVs up there.

So yes you might be too young and unaware of the places that definitely have bans on trailers and even vehicle access today thanks to events where basically city folk dragged the house and the Kitchen sink into a place it probably shouldn’t have been.
Just sayn..
I have hiked out the other side of the range twice as a kid first week of July once for a snow storm and once for a wild fire. Today we have 100’s of people dragging RVs into areas in August-November they probably shouldn’t be. Its the RV version of the Flip Flop kid driving to the mountains to see a snow storm?
Actually, I don't "drag" anything into the mountains or desert. That's why I have a capable trailer that can go where I want to go without damage, then offer a fine place to camp in any weather. It's all relative, I guess. Modern stickies can't get off the pavement without ripping off parts or breaking something. Caravans have real ground clearance, large tires, good suspension with shocks, articulating hitches, like the McHitch, and relatively narrow bodies for fitting through tight places. I've been to Saline Valley, CA many times, Baja, Usal Beach in CA, Seven Mile Rim at Moab, Whitmore overlook, the mining roads near Silverton, CO, climbed up to Leavitt Lake on the Sonora pass with a washed out road in a hailstorm, parked in soft sand just feet from water at a local lake visited numerous hot springs in NV, and lots of places in Utah. You can hike in or out all you want and that's fine, but I can stay for days in any weather, cook great meals, be away from everyone if I want to and see places others only dream about. All while towing my caravan. And no, I don't litter up the place by leaving it there for seasons. Bring on a snow storm, bring on freezing weather. That is why I like ground clearance, large tires, quality suspension, good insulation, a narrow body, large solar, large batteries and quality construction. I wish I was too young to know about the places you mention, but I'm not, and it seriously pisses me off to see the destruction by looters and gun toting **************** who think it's their god given right to shoot up anything they find out there, or tear up cabins left by others. CA is the worst for this scourge, but it is moving east.
 

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