Cable dimensioning

JPaul

Observer
FIRST: If we accpt that electrical current runs on the surface of wires, then we want a greater surface area to carry our current. The more expensive wire has a greater surface area so carries the current more efficiently.

We should only accept this if we are dealing with AC and even then it is with frequencies above anything really meaningful like over a few hundred kHz that this would even matter. DC exhibits no skin effect so the current flows through the entire cross section of each strand. So no matter how thin or thick it is or how many strands or how much surface area it has, the current flow is the same. All that matters is the total cross sectional area of the cable. To give you an idea of how this is a non-issue, the skin depth at 50 Hz AC is 8.5mm from the surface to the core of a solid conductor. At 50Hz you'd need to be using a solid conductor over 17mm (5/8") in cross section area to see any actual impact from skin effect. Stranded wire of the same gauge, even if it was only three strands, would fix that instantly until you get each individual strand back above 17mm in diameter.

The only purpose for using more, finer strands in a cable in a DC circuit is to increase its flexibility. It does nothing else for you at DC. All wire gauge measurements (such as AWG, MCM, mm2, etc) base their sizing off the sum cross sectional area of all strands in a given cable/wire. It's just that AWG doesn't make this apparent with the number assigned to each gauge, whereas MCM and mm2 are the actual cross sectional area.

As an example, this is why 10 AWG stranded is often nicked or has several strands cut when using a stripper meant for 10 AWG solid (a common folly since most strippers are made for solid wire). 10 AWG solid is a smaller overall diameter than 10 AWG stranded due to it being as compact as you can get it, while the corresponding stranded cable (if its truly the actual AWG it claims to be, most cheaper cable isn't) has a larger overall diameter since there is air space between the strands. Every time I use my strippers on stranded wire I end up using the next size up since they are designed for solid AWG, unless it's cheap stranded wire that is using the diameter of a solid wire to claim what AWG it is, then I have to use the corresponding cutter on my stripper.

This brings up an important point on why to avoid cheap stranded wire. If it isn't actually copper clad aluminum (which is a poor choice due to higher resistance than copper and very poor oxidation resistance for the alloys used, hence the need to clad it in copper), the odds are it's not the AWG it claims to be but is probably closer to the next size down.

That being said, if it's a non critical setup, or you're not trying to match the gauge as close as you can to the running amps because of installation issues, then the cheap stranded is fine, even if its not exactly the gauge it claims to be. Though be careful because there is cable out there that is so far away from being the gauge it claims to be that it's actually several steps down in size. But stuff from the auto parts store is generally fine, or at least close enough. You only need to be concerned if you're designing to the edge. Bigger is always better, so going up one size is usually a good option and generally doesn't add much to the cost overall.
 

pdavitt

Member
I only use UL1426-certified tinned "boat cable", matching designed-for-purpose crimper tools and top marine quality terminator fittings and other hardware.

UL may be a US standard, I'm sure there are Euro or ISO equivalents.

Neither electrics nor LPG are areas to save money on by purchasing generic stuff based on price, even need to watch for counterfeits in this era of Chinese imports taking over.

Best to use trusted suppliers only.

I'm with john61ct on this one. "Boat Cable" from quality manufacturers is Class K (Type 3) 30 AWG, made with fully tinned, copper strands. For example a regular 2/0 AWG Type 2 cable will contain approximately 130 strands, whereas a 2/0 AWG Type 3 Marine cable will contain at least 1,323 strands.
Boat Cable will also have a high insulation temperature rating (105 Degrees C).

Why use Boat Cable? It is very flexible, very vibration resistant, and more temperature tolerant. The down side is, it is expensive. I just bought some 2/0 AWG cable and it was $6.40 a foot.

Pat
 

john61ct

Adventurer
Prices can become more reasonable choosing known-good wholesale sources and buying spool quantities. Consolidating to just 3-4 gauge sizes is usually worthwhile, compared to the extra cost of rounding up.

For long-term exposed use cases resistance to corrosion is another important feature of quality boat cable and fittings.
 

pdavitt

Member
Prices can become more reasonable choosing known-good wholesale sources and buying spool quantities. Consolidating to just 3-4 gauge sizes is usually worthwhile, compared to the extra cost of rounding up.

For long-term exposed use cases resistance to corrosion is another important feature of quality boat cable and fittings.

Am retired now and live in the boondocks, the Davis Mountains of west Texas. However, your post spurred me to research more on the internet. I will still buy the 2/0 by the foot since I don't need much of it for this project. But, I found a source for reels of 6 and smaller wire that I probably will purchase in reel quantities.

Thanks,
Pat
 
FIRST: If we accpt that electrical current runs on the surface of wires, then we want a greater surface area to carry our current. The more expensive wire has a greater surface area so carries the current more efficiently.

We should only accept this if we are dealing with AC and even then it is with frequencies above anything really meaningful like over a few hundred kHz that this would even matter. DC exhibits no skin effect so the current flows through the entire cross section of each strand. So no matter how thin or thick it is or how many strands or how much surface area it has, the current flow is the same. All that matters is the total cross sectional area of the cable. To give you an idea of how this is a non-issue, the skin depth at 50 Hz AC is 8.5mm from the surface to the core of a solid conductor. At 50Hz you'd need to be using a solid conductor over 17mm (5/8") in cross section area to see any actual impact from skin effect. Stranded wire of the same gauge, even if it was only three strands, would fix that instantly until you get each individual strand back above 17mm in diameter.

The only purpose for using more, finer strands in a cable in a DC circuit is to increase its flexibility. It does nothing else for you at DC. All wire gauge measurements (such as AWG, MCM, mm2, etc) base their sizing off the sum cross sectional area of all strands in a given cable/wire. It's just that AWG doesn't make this apparent with the number assigned to each gauge, whereas MCM and mm2 are the actual cross sectional area.

As an example, this is why 10 AWG stranded is often nicked or has several strands cut when using a stripper meant for 10 AWG solid (a common folly since most strippers are made for solid wire). 10 AWG solid is a smaller overall diameter than 10 AWG stranded due to it being as compact as you can get it, while the corresponding stranded cable (if its truly the actual AWG it claims to be, most cheaper cable isn't) has a larger overall diameter since there is air space between the strands. Every time I use my strippers on stranded wire I end up using the next size up since they are designed for solid AWG, unless it's cheap stranded wire that is using the diameter of a solid wire to claim what AWG it is, then I have to use the corresponding cutter on my stripper.

This brings up an important point on why to avoid cheap stranded wire. If it isn't actually copper clad aluminum (which is a poor choice due to higher resistance than copper and very poor oxidation resistance for the alloys used, hence the need to clad it in copper), the odds are it's not the AWG it claims to be but is probably closer to the next size down.

That being said, if it's a non critical setup, or you're not trying to match the gauge as close as you can to the running amps because of installation issues, then the cheap stranded is fine, even if its not exactly the gauge it claims to be. Though be careful because there is cable out there that is so far away from being the gauge it claims to be that it's actually several steps down in size. But stuff from the auto parts store is generally fine, or at least close enough. You only need to be concerned if you're designing to the edge. Bigger is always better, so going up one size is usually a good option and generally doesn't add much to the cost overall.
Thank you JPaul. I stand corrected on my skin effect advice.

But, I do want to reiterate that buying better wire with more and smaller stranding does have other benefits besides just laying down easier.

It is more tolerant of corrosion damage, more tolerant of outer strand nicking due to incorrect use of strippers, and more tolerant of "in use" physical damage.

Other than that, I think your comments were excellent and should help people in understanding better some of the considerations involved in materials selection for wiring applications.

Regards,
RestorationRides

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
 

john61ct

Adventurer
your post spurred me to research more on the internet. I will still buy the 2/0 by the foot since I don't need much of it for this project. But, I found a source for reels of 6 and smaller wire that I probably will purchase in reel quantities.
Ancor is the best known quality maker, thus usually overpriced try fisheries supply.

Pacer is just as good, available here http://www.bestboatwire.com sister co. to http://genuinedealz.com great for custom lengths, optionally already well terminated for you (measure twice!) Only $1 per crimp!

EPM makes good stuff, also Berkshire Wire in Western MA, call for nearby distribution.

Avoid Cobra
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Carol & General Cable are another. I used some Carol branded off shore rated stuff, I ended up with several lengths from ends of spools at work. High quality stuff IMO.
 

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