Only a few vendors "dual use" will deliver decent longevity in deep cycling use.
For AGM in the NA market, those would be
Lifeline, Odyssey and Northstar.
Anything sold in consumer retail or autootive channels cannot be trusted, period.
Cause of battery drain
- Thread starter 68camaro
- Start date
For AGM in the NA market, those would be
Lifeline, Odyssey and Northstar.
Anything sold in consumer retail or autootive channels cannot be trusted, period.
OK, put patch on, went to Walmart, they were out of group 27 deep cycle so bought two group 24 deep cycle for marine & RV, all-n $157.00. Hopefully this will keep me powered during Expo East and give me time to thoroughly explore options and get best battery bank for my needs and future.
Thanks all, will be back once I get better handle on needs and can I change battery storage to fit 6v GC batteries.
Thanks all, will be back once I get better handle on needs and can I change battery storage to fit 6v GC batteries.
Martyn
Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Just skimmed through this thread. People are offering great advice, the only thing I see missing is load testing the original batteries. This would have been my first step. Take the vehicle to a local auto parts store, with the batteries fully charged disconnect the battery bank and test each individual battery. This would have told you right away what the state of the batteries was. If the batteries tested good I would have moved forward by looking for drains in the system.
Oops, I did think of that but passed, no real reason, probably shouldn't have. Anyway two 24's are in so at least I'll have some power and can put focus on upgrading batteries, solar, inverter, charge controller etc. Solar and components were new in 2001 so I think I can get more bang for buck with updated stuff.
Question for group, if I go from a deep cell battery to a AGM or 6V GC will I need to change my wires and/or charging system? If I take out my battery slide I think I have room for GC2 batteries.
Right now I have a Magnetex 7300 electronic converter/charger, Speciality Concepts Mark 15 Solar Controller and I think a Freedom 458 Combo Inverter/Charger (not sure how this is different than the Magnetex 7300).
Right now I have a Magnetex 7300 electronic converter/charger, Speciality Concepts Mark 15 Solar Controller and I think a Freedom 458 Combo Inverter/Charger (not sure how this is different than the Magnetex 7300).
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
No, you probably won't have to uograde the wiring...
But you might consider upgrading the converter. Magnatek doesn't have a reputation of doing a very good job of battery charging. There are upgrade kits.
http://www.bestconverter.com/Upgrade-Kits-for-MagnetekParallax_c_64.html
But you might consider upgrading the converter. Magnatek doesn't have a reputation of doing a very good job of battery charging. There are upgrade kits.
http://www.bestconverter.com/Upgrade-Kits-for-MagnetekParallax_c_64.html
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
Wait. Belay that.
The Magnatek is a converter. It takes 120v AC and converts it to 12v DC to run DC circuits. Also has some AC breakers to run AC circuits. Generally called a "power center".
The converter part is just made to run some DC circuits at a set voltage, which is why it doesn't do a good job of battery charging.
But I somehow looked right past you also having an inverter/charger. The Xantrex Freedom 458 has a 100a multi-stage charger, so with that handling the charging, there's no need to upgrade the Magnatek's converter section to a proper charger.
The Magnatek is a converter. It takes 120v AC and converts it to 12v DC to run DC circuits. Also has some AC breakers to run AC circuits. Generally called a "power center".
The converter part is just made to run some DC circuits at a set voltage, which is why it doesn't do a good job of battery charging.
But I somehow looked right past you also having an inverter/charger. The Xantrex Freedom 458 has a 100a multi-stage charger, so with that handling the charging, there's no need to upgrade the Magnatek's converter section to a proper charger.
So I was really confused on difference between Magnatek and Freedom 458. So one is converter and one is inverter/charger. I can keep Magnatek but upgrade the Xanatrex Freedom to get more inverter watts?
Would it makes sense to upgrade to a Redarc Dual Battery Charger? They have 40 Amp model and it's "proven" to charge to 100%. I am not sure if my system is charging batteries to 100% (current deep cell) , if I go AGM or GC2 will current system charge them to 100%?
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
Inverter/chargers take incoming AC and both pass it through to feed AC loads, and also tap it to power up the battery charger. When there is no incoming AC, it shuts down the battery charger and fires up the inverter (DC to AC) to feed the AC loads. Normally, you would just feed the DC loads straight from the battery.
The Magnatek is a power distribution box with a converter (AC to DC). It takes incoming AC and passes it though its breakers to feed AC loads, and also powers up its converter to feed DC loads. Without incoming AC (shore power or generator), the AC circuits are dead, but the DC circuits are still live because it also has a connection for a battery. With incoming AC the converter is both supplying the DC circuits, and also supplying a few amps of fixed voltage (probably 13.6v or so) to the battery. This can keep a battery "maintained" but doesn't do a good job of charging a low battery.
Now, with both the Magnatek and an inverter/charger, it should be rigged so that incoming AC feeds into the inverter/charger, which then feeds AC to the Magnatek. Thus, both the AC and the DC circuits coming out of the Magnatek are live all the time - the AC being fed by the inverter, and the DC being fed by the Magnatek's DC converter.
This would make sense. However, in that sort of setup, it would be wise to NOT have the Magnatek's battery connection hooked up. It would be dumb to take DC power from the battery, invert it to AC, feed it to the Magnatek, which converts it back to DC and then feeds it back into the battery. It won't break anything, but as long as the inverter is turned on, it would cause a loop that steady drains the battery.
Which may be the reason for your original post about battery drain...
But the caveat is that if the Magnatek's battery connection was not hooked up, then when the inverter was turned off, both the AC and DC circuits coming out of the Magnatek would be dead.
So you have to either live with everything being dead with the inverter turned off, or you have to rig the DC circuits direct to the battery and not fed by the Magnatek's converter. Or you live with that drain loop.
The Magnatek is a power distribution box with a converter (AC to DC). It takes incoming AC and passes it though its breakers to feed AC loads, and also powers up its converter to feed DC loads. Without incoming AC (shore power or generator), the AC circuits are dead, but the DC circuits are still live because it also has a connection for a battery. With incoming AC the converter is both supplying the DC circuits, and also supplying a few amps of fixed voltage (probably 13.6v or so) to the battery. This can keep a battery "maintained" but doesn't do a good job of charging a low battery.
Now, with both the Magnatek and an inverter/charger, it should be rigged so that incoming AC feeds into the inverter/charger, which then feeds AC to the Magnatek. Thus, both the AC and the DC circuits coming out of the Magnatek are live all the time - the AC being fed by the inverter, and the DC being fed by the Magnatek's DC converter.
This would make sense. However, in that sort of setup, it would be wise to NOT have the Magnatek's battery connection hooked up. It would be dumb to take DC power from the battery, invert it to AC, feed it to the Magnatek, which converts it back to DC and then feeds it back into the battery. It won't break anything, but as long as the inverter is turned on, it would cause a loop that steady drains the battery.
Which may be the reason for your original post about battery drain...
But the caveat is that if the Magnatek's battery connection was not hooked up, then when the inverter was turned off, both the AC and DC circuits coming out of the Magnatek would be dead.
So you have to either live with everything being dead with the inverter turned off, or you have to rig the DC circuits direct to the battery and not fed by the Magnatek's converter. Or you live with that drain loop.
Last edited:
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
Now as to battery charging...
Lead-acid batteries come in three variants - Flooded, AGM and Gel. They are all basically the same, 2 volt cells of lead plates and diluted sulphuric acid electrolyte. AGMs have fiberglass fabric between the plates to act as a sponge to keep maximum contact area between lead and acid. Gels use a gelling agent in the electrolyte to achieve the the same effect. Flooded might or might not be sealed (non-removable caps), AGMs and Gels are always sealed.
There are also cranking, which have lots of thin lead plates to produce high peak amps, and deep cycle which have thicker lead plates and don't produce the same high peak amps. But the thin plates of a cranking battery don't last when deeply drained, so for deep cycling, you want the thick plates.
Golf cart batteries are normally flooded with removable caps, and made up of 3 x fat 2v cells with thick plates. So they are 6v batteries and you need 2 wired in series to get 6 x 2v cells to make a 12v battery "bank".
The thing to understand is that lead-acid all charge basically the same. For a 12v battery you have to get it up over 14v and hold it there for however many hours it takes for the electrolye to absorb enough electrons to be fully saturated.
There are some minor differences. Gels don't like to go much above 14v because it heats up and breaks down the gelling agent. Flooded can handle all the way up to 15v or even 16v if it's cool enough. And while the higher voltage is actually good for the battery's health, and will get it fully saturated quicker, it will use more water and need to be topped off more often. AGM also like higher voltage, but generally not beyond 14.7v or 14.8v.
Amperage is generally not as important as voltage. Lead-acid batteries resist current (amps) flowing through them. They act as current limiters. So even if you had a million amp charger - if the battery only allows 20a to flow, you get 20a.
So you have to get over 14v and hold it there for hours. This is why a constant 13.6v (or whatever the voltage actually is) from the Magnatek's converter won't get it done. It can maintain or "float" a full battery, but it won't get it full by itself. Hence the upgrade kits to remove the converter section and replace it with a proper charger.
But you have a proper charger in the Xantrex. A nice fat charger that can supply up to 100a...and a pair of golf cart batteries might actually allow 100a to flow...
For a while anyway. A lead-acid battery has a high resistance when it's dead, and a high resistance when it's full. So as it charges, the resistance goes up, and the amps it allows to flow goes down. That last 10% to get it truly full is the toughest part.
Lead-acid batteries come in three variants - Flooded, AGM and Gel. They are all basically the same, 2 volt cells of lead plates and diluted sulphuric acid electrolyte. AGMs have fiberglass fabric between the plates to act as a sponge to keep maximum contact area between lead and acid. Gels use a gelling agent in the electrolyte to achieve the the same effect. Flooded might or might not be sealed (non-removable caps), AGMs and Gels are always sealed.
There are also cranking, which have lots of thin lead plates to produce high peak amps, and deep cycle which have thicker lead plates and don't produce the same high peak amps. But the thin plates of a cranking battery don't last when deeply drained, so for deep cycling, you want the thick plates.
Golf cart batteries are normally flooded with removable caps, and made up of 3 x fat 2v cells with thick plates. So they are 6v batteries and you need 2 wired in series to get 6 x 2v cells to make a 12v battery "bank".
The thing to understand is that lead-acid all charge basically the same. For a 12v battery you have to get it up over 14v and hold it there for however many hours it takes for the electrolye to absorb enough electrons to be fully saturated.
There are some minor differences. Gels don't like to go much above 14v because it heats up and breaks down the gelling agent. Flooded can handle all the way up to 15v or even 16v if it's cool enough. And while the higher voltage is actually good for the battery's health, and will get it fully saturated quicker, it will use more water and need to be topped off more often. AGM also like higher voltage, but generally not beyond 14.7v or 14.8v.
Amperage is generally not as important as voltage. Lead-acid batteries resist current (amps) flowing through them. They act as current limiters. So even if you had a million amp charger - if the battery only allows 20a to flow, you get 20a.
So you have to get over 14v and hold it there for hours. This is why a constant 13.6v (or whatever the voltage actually is) from the Magnatek's converter won't get it done. It can maintain or "float" a full battery, but it won't get it full by itself. Hence the upgrade kits to remove the converter section and replace it with a proper charger.
But you have a proper charger in the Xantrex. A nice fat charger that can supply up to 100a...and a pair of golf cart batteries might actually allow 100a to flow...
For a while anyway. A lead-acid battery has a high resistance when it's dead, and a high resistance when it's full. So as it charges, the resistance goes up, and the amps it allows to flow goes down. That last 10% to get it truly full is the toughest part.
Last edited:
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
So the Xantrex has a 100a multi-stage charger.
What a muti-stage does is run wide open - no voltage limit, allowing the battery to limit the voltage - until the battery reaches a certain voltage (whatever voltage has been programmed into the charger). That's the "bulk stage".
Once the battery reaches that voltage, the charger then starts regulating the voltage (so it doesn't keep pushing the battery voltage ever higher), and holds it there for however many hours until the battery is finally fully saturated. That's the "absorb stage"
Once the battery is full, the charger then reduces the voltage low enough to just keep the battery topped off. That's the "float stage".
Yes, you can replace the inverter/charger if you want more watts out of the inverter. I think it's a 2000w inverter, and a pair of golf cart batteries won't run 2000w for very long. Going even bigger on the inverter will just make that worse. But you could do it.
It won't make any difference to battery charging. Even a bigger inverter/charger probably won't have more than a 100a charger - and even if it does, the battery will still limit the amp flow so it probably won't gain you anything.
The only valid reason I can see for replacing the inverter/charger - and it's very questionable if it's a good reason or not - is that the Freedom 458 is a modified square wave inverter, not a sine wave inverter.
Inverters are either square wave, modified square wave (to better simulate a sine wave), or sine wave. I know...marketing guys say "pure sine wave" (which isn't true, hook up an oscilloscope and you'll see it's a bit dirty) or "modified sine wave" (which also isn't true - if it was a sine wave to begin with, it wouldn't need to be modified).
You might want to replace the modified square wave inverter with a sine wave inverter. I wouldn't bother. The inverters in APC computer UPS units are modified square wave and I've never heard of anything not working properly on those.
What a muti-stage does is run wide open - no voltage limit, allowing the battery to limit the voltage - until the battery reaches a certain voltage (whatever voltage has been programmed into the charger). That's the "bulk stage".
Once the battery reaches that voltage, the charger then starts regulating the voltage (so it doesn't keep pushing the battery voltage ever higher), and holds it there for however many hours until the battery is finally fully saturated. That's the "absorb stage"
Once the battery is full, the charger then reduces the voltage low enough to just keep the battery topped off. That's the "float stage".
Yes, you can replace the inverter/charger if you want more watts out of the inverter. I think it's a 2000w inverter, and a pair of golf cart batteries won't run 2000w for very long. Going even bigger on the inverter will just make that worse. But you could do it.
It won't make any difference to battery charging. Even a bigger inverter/charger probably won't have more than a 100a charger - and even if it does, the battery will still limit the amp flow so it probably won't gain you anything.
The only valid reason I can see for replacing the inverter/charger - and it's very questionable if it's a good reason or not - is that the Freedom 458 is a modified square wave inverter, not a sine wave inverter.
Inverters are either square wave, modified square wave (to better simulate a sine wave), or sine wave. I know...marketing guys say "pure sine wave" (which isn't true, hook up an oscilloscope and you'll see it's a bit dirty) or "modified sine wave" (which also isn't true - if it was a sine wave to begin with, it wouldn't need to be modified).
You might want to replace the modified square wave inverter with a sine wave inverter. I wouldn't bother. The inverters in APC computer UPS units are modified square wave and I've never heard of anything not working properly on those.
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
Now as to the Redarc...
Do you need it? Depends. How does the house battery charge now while driving?
The Redarc is a multi-stage charger that will take whatever the alternator voltage is and bump it up high enough to do a proper multi-stage charge. So yes, it will get the house battery 100% full...
IF you drive enough hours (8-12 or more) for the battery to fully absorb and saturate. Most people never do drive enough hours do get the job well and truly done.
Do you need it? Depends. How does the house battery charge now while driving?
The Redarc is a multi-stage charger that will take whatever the alternator voltage is and bump it up high enough to do a proper multi-stage charge. So yes, it will get the house battery 100% full...
IF you drive enough hours (8-12 or more) for the battery to fully absorb and saturate. Most people never do drive enough hours do get the job well and truly done.
Last edited:
dwh, again thank you for taking the time to explain this in detail and piece by piece, it has taken me several reads to start getting a handle, but I need to re-read a few more times to put all together. It seems my initial plan of upgrading components for the sake of it may not be necessary.
So lets see if I have basics, the electrical systems consists of 110V AC and 12V DC appliances powered thru the 45 amp Magnatek. The Magnatek Converter is required to turn 110V AC to 12V DC - correct?
* 110V AC comes frm shore power or generator.
* 12V DC comes from Magnatek inverter when running the generator or when plugged into shore power, or simply the two coach batteries when no shore power or generator running.
110V AC runs Converter, microwave, frig, A/C, DSS and GFI protected receptacles for apploances
12V DC runs appliances except for A/C and microwave
My goal is to be able to power a light fixture or two (one fixture has to 13watt flouro bulbs and lights up whole place pretty good), recharge ipad/iphone, water pump, charge Bose mini or run coach stereo, run TV when hooked up to Iphone/ipad, Furnace for amount depending on how cold (I have Mr. Heater Buddy that can take up furnace place if furnace burns too much power), and maybe frig. Not sure if I missed anything.
So it seems I need to check to see if my Magnateks battery connection is hooked up and if so better to rig DC circuits direct to battery instead of converter?
If so, is there any downside to this? Or, with battery disconnected from Magnatek are we just bypassing Magnatek when boondocking and have appliances running straight off battery, skipping the Magnatek converter? Would my low voltage alarm still work?
So lets see if I have basics, the electrical systems consists of 110V AC and 12V DC appliances powered thru the 45 amp Magnatek. The Magnatek Converter is required to turn 110V AC to 12V DC - correct?
* 110V AC comes frm shore power or generator.
* 12V DC comes from Magnatek inverter when running the generator or when plugged into shore power, or simply the two coach batteries when no shore power or generator running.
110V AC runs Converter, microwave, frig, A/C, DSS and GFI protected receptacles for apploances
12V DC runs appliances except for A/C and microwave
My goal is to be able to power a light fixture or two (one fixture has to 13watt flouro bulbs and lights up whole place pretty good), recharge ipad/iphone, water pump, charge Bose mini or run coach stereo, run TV when hooked up to Iphone/ipad, Furnace for amount depending on how cold (I have Mr. Heater Buddy that can take up furnace place if furnace burns too much power), and maybe frig. Not sure if I missed anything.
So it seems I need to check to see if my Magnateks battery connection is hooked up and if so better to rig DC circuits direct to battery instead of converter?
If so, is there any downside to this? Or, with battery disconnected from Magnatek are we just bypassing Magnatek when boondocking and have appliances running straight off battery, skipping the Magnatek converter? Would my low voltage alarm still work?