F-150 Diesel

#1
Well the initial video reviews are out but the truck/engine option has yet to hit dealerships.

Ford just announced their new 3.0l Powerstroke diesel option for the F-150 (an engine design that is based off of one that is used in Range Rover and Jaguar vehicles).

250 HP, 440lb-ft 30 mpg highway for 4x2 and 25 mpg highway for 4x4.

Pretty decent figures, though I guess we'll have to wait and see how those #'s hold up in real world usage. Historically, these new, low displacement diesels have outperformed their EPA ratings.

It's a $4k cost over the base 2.7l ecoboost. I'm not sure how much more it costs over the 3.5l ecoboost or v8. If the 3.0l VM Motori engine weight (~500lbs) is any indication, the 3.0l Powerstroke should weigh roughly the same as the 3.5l ecoboost, so the weight penalty will be marginal.

On paper at least, I think this engine makes for a compelling option in the F-150. Some of the ecoboost options advertise mpg ratings they are somewhat close to this diesel engine, but their efficiency really seems to suffer when put to work or in realistic driving conditions. I heard one journalist put it best: "you can either have eco, or you can have boost, but you can't have both." If this new engine delivers on its promised ratings and proves to be reliable, I could see it becoming a popular option.

Anyone here have plans to buy one?
 
#2
I too am curious about this new engines real word performance and numbers. I watched a video whee a guy hooked a 6k lb traile to it and towed it around town all day, to simulate what a contractor may use the truck for. He didn't baby it, floored it getting on the highway and kept up with in town traffic from lights, up hills, etc and said he got 10.9 mpg IIRC and I "think" he had the 4x4 crew version. Not sure how that compares to a F-250 Powerstroke pulling the same weight but I bet it's close.
One thing I noticed about the smaller engines, both gas and diesel, is that the do great for driving around unladen, but once you hook them to a load the mileage is comparable to a much bigger engine of the same fuel type. It does make sense for the normal guy who drives his truck to the office during the week then hauls a boat, toys or camper on the weekend but not sure about someone who hauls all the time and will be asking a lot from the platform.

My biggest concern (still) is the cost for maintenance/repairs if you aren't under warranty and am I going to be able to start it a -20 without A) killing the batteries B) smoking out the neighborhood and C) waking up the neighbors with all the rattling whan starting that cold

Darrell
 
#3
Doubt it will be anytime soon as F150 assembly lines are shutting down for lack of instrument panels. The company that is the supplier of them had a major fire and Ford has already stopped some F150 lines.
 
#4
I too am curious about this new engines real word performance and numbers. I watched a video whee a guy hooked a 6k lb traile to it and towed it around town all day, to simulate what a contractor may use the truck for. He didn't baby it, floored it getting on the highway and kept up with in town traffic from lights, up hills, etc and said he got 10.9 mpg IIRC and I "think" he had the 4x4 crew version. Not sure how that compares to a F-250 Powerstroke pulling the same weight but I bet it's close.
One thing I noticed about the smaller engines, both gas and diesel, is that the do great for driving around unladen, but once you hook them to a load the mileage is comparable to a much bigger engine of the same fuel type. It does make sense for the normal guy who drives his truck to the office during the week then hauls a boat, toys or camper on the weekend but not sure about someone who hauls all the time and will be asking a lot from the platform.
I agree that when under significant load, smaller engines tend to see a bigger efficiency hit than do bigger engines. But like you said, a smaller 3.0l diesel could make a lot of sense for the fellow who wants a semi-efficient daily driver and only tows or hauls infrequently. The V8 Powerstroke and other HD diesels are excellent towing machines, but their mpg for regular driving is nothing special. The 6.7l Cummins inline 6 actually gets decent fuel economy when empty (TFL and numerous owner reviews show it can get up to 22-23 mpg on the highway), but the v8's seem to be a little bit more thirsty. Not to mention, you're going to pay more in maintenance costs for the bigger diesels.

So I definitely see a place in the market for the 1/2 ton 3.0l diesels and the 2.8l diesel in the midsized segment. The GM Colorado can get north of 30 mpg in certain configurations and none of the gasoline engines, with similar towing capabilities, come anywhere close to that.

My biggest concern (still) is the cost for maintenance/repairs if you aren't under warranty and am I going to be able to start it a -20 without A) killing the batteries B) smoking out the neighborhood and C) waking up the neighbors with all the rattling whan starting that cold

Darrell
Warranty and repairs will be a concern for these newer diesel trucks, but then again that's a concern for any new truck with computer controlled systems and engines which are increasingly trending towards forced induction.

Cold start issues, loud exhaust noises and smoke shows really aren't a concern IMO. The modern diesels are much cleaner, quieter and all have pretty well sorted their cold-start capabilities.

I just finished driving the Dalton recently when the weather was still at or around 0F; I saw quite a few diesel HD trucks up there (mostly Ram w/ 6.7 Cummins and Ford Powerstrokes). The workers up at Prudhoe obviously have enough faith in those platforms/engines to use them in such extreme temperatures. Now keep in mind, all the parking lots had engine block plug-in stations; any engine, whether it be gasoline or diesel, is going to be better off with a block heater for temperatures that get that low.
 
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jeep-N-montero

Expedition Leader
#5
With towing mpg so close to their gas counterparts and diesel costing much more, it would be hard to justify paying the initial premium over the gas engine plus a higher cost of ownership.
 
#6
My biggest concern (still) is the cost for maintenance/repairs if you aren't under warranty and am I going to be able to start it a -20 without A) killing the batteries B) smoking out the neighborhood and C) waking up the neighbors with all the rattling whan starting that cold

Darrell
I wouldn't worry about cold starts. My Colorado Duramax 2.8 starts right up at -20F, as did my VW 3.0 diesel SUV. It cranks a little longer, but the sound is no different once lit.

Maintenance is a little more for fuel filters but less for spark plugs ;)

No smoke that I ever noticed.

The biggest "problem" is DEF usage in modern diesels. My VW 3.0 used very little, but we know why now (Hint: they cheated). Modern small displacement diesels drink DEF at a high rate. It's not that expensive, but if you don't like refilling things you won't like it. I use about a gallon per 1,000 miles.
 
#7
The youtube channel The Fast Lane Truck has a video up,the truck went into limp mode for unknown reasons.The truck does not have an exhaust brake,that is a big minus in my book.
 
#8
The youtube channel The Fast Lane Truck has a video up,the truck went into limp mode for unknown reasons.The truck does not have an exhaust brake,that is a big minus in my book.
I just watched that episode tonight, it went into limp mode both times they went downhill. It'll be interesting to see what Ford said the problem was. That makes the second Ford that has broken down on them on the ike gauntlet.
Bummer because I am a Ford guy.

Darrell
 
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#9
Only available in the Lariat trim. Have to spend an awful lot to save a little (if any) on fuel. Doesn't make any cents. So that would be a no.

Small displacement diesels made sense when they were pre-emissions and were damn near bomb proof. Sadly we never really got any, but the rest of the World did. Like most things today they have become overly complicated and expensive. I am sure they will still sell as long as the truck bubble keeps on growing. Any guess when the economy is going to crash again, I am guessing 2-3 years.

$68,000 for that test truck in the TFL video, that went into limp mode going downhill, Yeah no thanks...

A plea to the truck manufactures. Can we please go back to simple trucks that an owner could fix themselves, that you can beat on, and didn't cost as much as a small house. *sigh* those days are never to return.
 
#10
Only available in the Lariat trim. Have to spend an awful lot to save a little (if any) on fuel. Doesn't make any cents. So that would be a no.

Small displacement diesels made sense when they were pre-emissions and were damn near bomb proof. Sadly we never really got any, but the rest of the World did. Like most things today they have become overly complicated and expensive. I am sure they will still sell as long as the truck bubble keeps on growing. Any guess when the economy is going to crash again, I am guessing 2-3 years.

$68,000 for that test truck in the TFL video, that went into limp mode going downhill, Yeah no thanks...

A plea to the truck manufactures. Can we please go back to simple trucks that an owner could fix themselves, that you can beat on, and didn't cost as much as a small house. *sigh* those days are never to return.
Hopefully Ford smartens up and offers that engine option for the lower trim levels. I agree their current plan is stupid.

These new diesels are getting better. In the same way that people used to complain about gasoline emissions controls back in the 70's and 80's, the woes of modern diesel emissions will eventually become a thing of the past. At least, that's the way technology is trending if you look at the past 10 years. I think if/when the economy eventually does correct, diesel F-150's are going to look very attractive compared to 3.5l ecoboost or v8, neither of which get all that great mpg's in real-world driving. Fuel prices are still insanely low, and when that changes, people will either ditch the trucks they never really needed in the first place or they'll look for more efficient engine options.

As for being able to fix your own stuff, lol...you're barking up the wrong tree. Ford, among all the OEM's, seems to care the least about enabling its consumers to do DIY maintenance and fixes. Look at what's required to do basic repairs and work on the Super Duty....ahem...cab removal.
 
#11
Hopefully Ford smartens up and offers that engine option for the lower trim levels. I agree their current plan is stupid.

These new diesels are getting better. In the same way that people used to complain about gasoline emissions controls back in the 70's and 80's, the woes of modern diesel emissions will eventually become a thing of the past. At least, that's the way technology is trending if you look at the past 10 years. I think if/when the economy eventually does correct, diesel F-150's are going to look very attractive compared to 3.5l ecoboost or v8, neither of which get all that great mpg's in real-world driving. Fuel prices are still insanely low, and when that changes, people will either ditch the trucks they never really needed in the first place or they'll look for more efficient engine options.

As for being able to fix your own stuff, lol...you're barking up the wrong tree. Ford, among all the OEM's, seems to care the least about enabling its consumers to do DIY maintenance and fixes. Look at what's required to do basic repairs and work on the Super Duty....ahem...cab removal.
I would think the whole point of buying a vehicle that achieved better mileage than the current crop, would be to save money. but not the case. At that price point...it doesn't seem very rational. Though, what is anymore?


They are getting better, however I don't foresee them becoming less complicated nor less costly to repair. Do you? If/when the economy crashes...only way the diesel will win if people are bad at math. Takes an insanely long time for it to pay for itself...and by that time in its' service life...the repair cost will squash any savings if any.


Yeah....that isn't going to happen. Honestly ...though this might be oxymoronic...think EV's will be less complicated than what we have now for ICE options. far easier to control emissions at the power station than it is individual vehicles. Would like to see EV's improve than continue to throw R&D at diesel/petrol.
 
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#12
They are getting better, however I don't foresee them becoming less complicated nor less costly to repair. Do you?
Getting less complicated or less costly? Yes and no.

Yes, in that as the newer diesel technology, and accompanying emissions systems, become more refined and common, I think there will be a slight reduction in repair and maintenance costs. The bigger industrial diesel makers have already made a lot of progress in simplifying the repair and maintenance procedures (replaceable and serviceable DPF's and catalysts, longer service intervals, ect.).

No, in that the newer diesels are never going to be as simple and affordable as the old mechanical diesels. But those old mechanical ones were loud, smelly, and rough; many of them were only one step removed from being considered tractor engines. These newer diesels are so much more refined and definitely more capable than the older ones. The cost of all the refinement is complexity and, well, cost. Honestly all of that applies to the modern gasoline engines too, which are increasingly reliant on forced induction and ever-evolving injection and ignition strategies.

Yeah....that isn't going to happen. Honestly ...though this might be oxymoronic...think EV's will be less complicated than what we have now for ICE options. far easier to control emissions at the power station than it is individual vehicles. Would like to see EV's improve than continue to throw R&D at diesel/petrol.
Outside of small, short-range commuter cars, I think EV's will need to see a lot development before they can truly supercede the ICE. The range and utility simply isn't there yet IMHO. Tesla's electric big rig and comparable concepts are marketing gimmicks more than anything else. I think hydrogen or hybrid's (which obviously involve ICE's) will see significant development and usage for the immediate future.
 
#13
Outside of small, short-range commuter cars, I think EV's will need to see a lot development before they can truly supercede the ICE. The range and utility simply isn't there yet IMHO. Tesla's electric big rig and comparable concepts are marketing gimmicks more than anything else. I think hydrogen or hybrid's (which obviously involve ICE's) will see significant development and usage for the immediate future.
We are probably 10 years out before we will see small scale nuclear powered sterling engine generators used in transportation. Already proven to be effective at generating at the 10Kw level in a small package.
 

DaveInDenver

Expedition Leader
#14
Cold start issues, loud exhaust noises and smoke shows really aren't a concern IMO. The modern diesels are much cleaner, quieter and all have pretty well sorted their cold-start capabilities.
This is lost on the U.S. market, which seems to equate diesel with Rolling Coal and 1980s VW Rabbits. I've venture to guess prior to DEF requirements the typical driver would even really notice a TDI or Bluetec on a daily basis (which is evidenced by how often you see a VW in the dealership getting a new fuel system after someone filled it with gasoline).
 
#15
Outside of small, short-range commuter cars, I think EV's will need to see a lot development before they can truly supercede the ICE. The range and utility simply isn't there yet IMHO. Tesla's electric big rig and comparable concepts are marketing gimmicks more than anything else. I think hydrogen or hybrid's (which obviously involve ICE's) will see significant development and usage for the immediate future.
Yep, it is going to while before EV's over take the internal combustion engine. Wish they would hurry up, but pretty dang hard to beat the energy storage in petroleum.

I am funny dude. I want anvil reliable simplicity....or full on computerized EV. Rather skip over these over complicated gas and diesel engines.

Dave was saying something somewheres....build us FJ40 simple, but with modern tolerances. Should last darn near forever.
 
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