For those that carry Guns and Overlanding

I think you're only thinking about heavy subsonics. the hunting rounds hit harder than either of the choices you have listed.
357 hits with 540-580 ft pounds depending on weight, and you have like 7 in the gun
44 magnum hits with 900 ft pounds, and again 6 in the gun or 10 in a lever gun
300BO hits with 1360 ft pounds. which is the same energy as getting hit with both 357 and 44 at the same time.
semi autos also have the advantage of 30+ rounds on tap with 30 more pretty quick.

I thought the same as you when I only knew about subsonics. Those are 220gn moving at 1k feet per second, so about the same as a 45acp. but the faster hunting rounds hit harder. and where 300 shines is your ability to switch between these rounds with just a mag change, and you get good ballistics out of an 8" barrel.
I'm considering the characteristics other than energy. Bullet weight, momentum, construction and penetration are more important in this case. A lightweight expanding hunting bullet is great for a broadside heart/lung shot but a poor choice when penetration of heavy bone and muscle is the intent. Look into bullet momentum and the Taylor KO factor.
 
I don't carry a firearm when I travel for wildlife like bears, I carry it as last stage protection from human scum. Normally, in the past, I traveled with a Glock 17 with a 19 round magazine and a little LCP which rides in my pocket on the trail. In recent years, I moved to the FNP-45 with a 15 round capacity. I'm 67 and spent a few years as a cop in SF in the 70's. That taught me a few things about people. The people I feel sorry for are the victims who never had a problem before. Until they did and weren't prepared.
 
I'm considering the characteristics other than energy. Bullet weight, momentum, construction and penetration are more important in this case. A lightweight expanding hunting bullet is great for a broadside heart/lung shot but a poor choice when penetration of heavy bone and muscle is the intent. Look into bullet momentum and the Taylor KO factor.
cool, i guess if we're making up stuff then I shouldn't have brought science into things. sorry, my bad.

a 357 and 9mm are nominally the same size. as is a 300BO, at least to the second decimal place. a 357 and 300BO are less than 30gn apart, and when you consider there are 7,000gn to a pound, that works out to a pretty small difference.

If you want to look at made up stuff, lets look at the StevieSterno Factor. bullet weight x rounds on board.... a 357 mag has 150gnx6 and a 300BO has 127gnX31. I may have not done well in math classes, but I think one may be bigger than the other?

Also KE = 1/2 MV squared, which also favors 300BO if you would like to go that way ;)

at the end of the day I prefer law abiding people carrying guns anywhere and everywhere they are legal. I'm 100% for it. if 357 makes you happy, than do it. I'm often cool with just a 38 special (gasp!).

carry whatever gives you the warm and fuzzies, and please don't give any crap to people who do the same but have come to a different conclusion as you.
 
No need to be rude. Nothing in my post is made up at all. I didn’t say the BO has less energy, I said the lighter weight expanding bullet is not a good choice when maximum penetration and bone breaking force is desired. An expanding bullet is great for hunting. An expanding bullet is terrible for bear defense. Bullet momentum is a factor influencing penetration and heavier bullets. A 305gr 44 Magnum has much more momentum than a 110gr 300BO. Even though the BO has more kinetic energy it doesn’t have the momentum to penetrate deeply and by design the bullet will expand, quickly dissipating energy and limiting penetration.
 
No need to be rude. Nothing in my post is made up at all. I didn’t say the BO has less energy, I said the lighter weight expanding bullet is not a good choice when maximum penetration and bone breaking force is desired. An expanding bullet is great for hunting. An expanding bullet is terrible for bear defense. Bullet momentum is a factor influencing penetration and heavier bullets. A 305gr 44 Magnum has much more momentum than a 110gr 300BO. Even though the BO has more kinetic energy it doesn’t have the momentum to penetrate deeply and by design the bullet will expand, quickly dissipating energy and limiting penetration.
not trying to be rude, just trying to bring facts into the equation. I have been a competitive shooter for the better part of a decade and I have never heard the term "Taylor KO factor". the mythical stopping power has been discussed for a long time in a lot of ways, with very little fact to back it up because bullets do weird stuff when they enter soft tissue. I usually role with the idea that Rifle > Pistol in almost all power arguments, and stand by the KE argument. end of the day, if I'm charged by anything i want the biggest bullet, moving the fastest, that holds the most rounds, that I can shoot well. as always, a 22 in the hand beats a 44 in the safe. For me, that's reasonable pistols or semi auto rifles in a caliber i can control. If I end up on safari or in Alaska I'll reconsider, but my carry choices give me confidence in all the states I've ever been in.
 
not trying to be rude, just trying to bring facts into the equation. I have been a competitive shooter for the better part of a decade and I have never heard the term "Taylor KO factor". the mythical stopping power has been discussed for a long time in a lot of ways, with very little fact to back it up because bullets do weird stuff when they enter soft tissue. I usually role with the idea that Rifle > Pistol in almost all power arguments, and stand by the KE argument.
You talk about facts but completely disregard the fact that momentum plays a huge part in penetration. Kinetic energy is nice, but kinetic energy isn’t the be all end all. A 50gr bullet from a 22-250 has far more kinetic energy than anything we’ve discussed but no one would say that’s good choice for bear defense. The projectile has to have the mass and momentum to penetrate whichever is why large caliber, heavy projectiles are used.

As a competitive shooter I’m not surprised you haven’t the heard of Taylor’s KO factor. It’s an old method but works well to compare the terminal effects of firearms within reason. Not at all relevant in the competition world but certainly has a place for hunting or large animal defense when considering what firearm or bullet to use.
 
You talk about facts but completely disregard the fact that momentum plays a huge part in penetration. Kinetic energy is nice, but kinetic energy isn’t the be all end all. A 50gr bullet from a 22-250 has far more kinetic energy than anything we’ve discussed but no one would say that’s good choice for bear defense. The projectile has to have the mass and momentum to penetrate whichever is why large caliber, heavy projectiles are used.

As a competitive shooter I’m not surprised you haven’t the heard of Taylor’s KO factor. It’s an old method but works well to compare the terminal effects of firearms within reason. Not at all relevant in the competition world but certainly has a place for hunting or large animal defense when considering what firearm or bullet to use.

I read somewhere, a while back that there were studies that show big heavy bullets traveling at a more moderate pace had better penetration against solid bone than big bullets moving a very fast speeds.

All that being said, i aint a fan of 300 blackouts or the AR pistol's.
 
I don't really agree with the whole "knock-out" concept.

Modern bullets don't kill animals by knocking them down or out. They kill through: organ/system destruction and bleeding. When people refer to animals stumbling or falling down (temporarily or permanently) after a bullet strike, it's often due to the shock waves that bullets generate as they travel through the animal's body (this effect is especially likely if the bullet creates shock waves at or near the central nervous system).

Momentum, kinetic energy, sectional density and bullet construction are several factors which dictate the lethality of a particular bullet.
Kinetic energy indicates how hard the bullet hits the animal, and to some degree dictates penetration characteristics.
Momentum indicates how well the bullet will travel through the animal.
Bullet construction (expanding versus hard-cast versus monolithic, ect.) and sectional density also help to determine penetration characteristics.

If you want a basic guideline on determining the appropriate bullet weight/cartridge for various animal weights, check out Matuna's optimal game weight formula, which basically factors kinetic energy and momentum.

Generally speaking, a slow but heavy bullet is not optimal for killing large game. .44 magnum and .357 magnum are considered acceptable within the pistol world, but ultimately shotgun and centerfire rifle cartridges (6.5mm and bigger) are considered far more effective for such duties since they usually produce higher energy and momentum figures. People use pistols as backup's or in scenarios where carrying a rifle or shotgun is impractical, not because they think a magnum pistol cartridge is inherently better.
 
I don't really agree with the whole "knock-out" concept.

Modern bullets don't kill animals by knocking them down or out. They kill through: organ/system destruction and bleeding. When people refer to animals stumbling or falling down (temporarily or permanently) after a bullet strike, it's often due to the shock waves that bullets generate as they travel through the animal's body (this effect is especially likely if the bullet creates shock waves at or near the central nervous system).

Momentum, kinetic energy, sectional density and bullet construction are several factors which dictate the lethality of a particular bullet.
Kinetic energy indicates how hard the bullet hits the animal, and to some degree dictates penetration characteristics.
Momentum indicates how well the bullet will travel through the animal.
Bullet construction (expanding versus hard-cast versus monolithic, ect.) and sectional density also help to determine penetration characteristics.

If you want a basic guideline on determining the appropriate bullet weight/cartridge for various animal weights, check out Matuna's optimal game weight formula, which basically factors kinetic energy and momentum.

Generally speaking, a slow but heavy bullet is not optimal for killing large game. .44 magnum and .357 magnum are considered acceptable within the pistol world, but ultimately shotgun and centerfire rifle cartridges (6.5mm and bigger) are considered far more effective for such duties since they usually produce higher energy and momentum figures. People use pistols as backup's or in scenarios where carrying a rifle or shotgun is impractical, not because they think a magnum pistol cartridge is inherently better.
The contribution of hydrostatic shock to injury/death is controversial. If you've ever seen actual combat footage from the era before body armor, or been in actual combat, when people get shot even by massive rounds like a .50cal or high-velocity rounds like .338 Lapua, they don't go flying backward like in the movies. They just drop like cutting the strings on a puppet. On the other hand, those wearing body armor describe it like being hit with a sledgehammer - that's because the bullet just stops, imparting all of its energy into the body/body armor system in an instant. Modern military ceramic body armor is designed to shatter locally to absorb that energy laterally (radially from the bullet vector) vs. transmitting it forward into the body where it will break ribs, bruise organs, and so on.

My feeling is less about "knocking out" the animal and more about slowing or stopping the charge, giving me space and time. Look at the posture of a large charging animal - most charge head down, straight at you from less than 25 yards away. If you've trained to quickly draw, aim center of mass, and squeeze, if you're accurate you're going to hit a vital area- head, neck vertebrae, heart. If you're a little off, you will hit something less vital, but something that will slow the animal down, and/or reduce the danger to you - shoulder joint/scapula, jaw, knees, hump - by impairing mobility. A heavy, fast round like a .454 carries more energy, and there's a time component to kinetic energy transfer. If that bullet only hits soft tissue, it imparts its energy into its target over a greater time/distance as it travels through. Deep penetration in soft tissue will make the animal bleed out, but that's not as good if you want to stop it quickly. When a heavy, fast bullet hits something solid like a heavy, dense animal bone (brown bear bone may be 10x as dense as human bone), much as with striking body armor, it imparts its energy in a shorter amount of time, simply by slowing down faster and/or fragmenting, and the bone and surrounding tissue have to absorb that energy. But that joint/skeletal member and the muscle that support it or organs it protects will be smashed.

In the unlikely event a large and dangerous animal charges, where you have maybe two seconds to get one shot off toward the center of mass, I want the highest probability that my first shot will impart the greatest amount of energy possible since the presented profile is mostly bone at center of mass. Therefore, I would opt for a heavy, fast caliber such as a .454 Casull. If it destroys a shoulder joint, or a jaw, or shatters neck vertebrae, that animal WILL slow down or stop, and not necessarily because of the energy transfer itself, but because of the musculoskeletal damage inflicted via the energy transfer - maximizing the chance for me to move and compose an accurate follow up shot.
 
Have you actually shot a .454 casull?

I'm not disagreeing that heavy/fast bullets are better at stopping animal charges. But I also think some people opt for more gun than what they're capable of accurately employing.

.44 magnum is about the heaviest I'd go for a 'bear' gun, and even that option is debatable considering that its expensive and somewhat of hassle to practice with.
 
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Without disparaging or judging anyone...

It must be terrible to live in a world where you fear so much that you go armed everywhere...
It is not fear. It is being prepared. "By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail."- Benjamin Franklin
I disagree. Fear is rampant in the US right now. Maybe you are too close to see it, but it is obvious every time I return to the States.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Have you actually shot a .454 casull?

I'm not disagreeing that heavy/fast bullets are better at stopping animal charges. But I also think some people opt for more gun than what they're capable of accurately employing.

.44 magnum is about the heaviest I'd go for a 'bear' gun, and even that option is debatable considering that its expensive and somewhat of hassle to practice with.
Yes, I have. I weigh about 195lbs, about 5'10" and exercise regularly. I grew up with firearms. Accurate firearms handling matters most for the first shot, especially in an emergency situation. Before the first shot, there is no recoil, there is no noise, no muzzle flash. There is only sight picture, breathing, trigger squeeze. The recoil is heavy, yes, but if this is the weapon you will carry in deep backcountry bush you damn well better be practicing with it regularly to ensure you know you can employ it effectively so you don't have to go feeling around for it in the brush with a broken and bleeding nose. After a cylinder's worth of rounds, I felt like I could train effectively to handle it - again, it wasn't that much worse than my 3" barrel Taurus Judge Magnum shooting a heavy .410ga 000 Buck load. If a lightweight .44mag is what you can handle, then practice with that, and carry that. Carry the largest, fastest round you can effectively employ - but I would leave the 9mm or .357mag at home. 10mm maybe, but if cost is an object that's not any cheaper to practice with than a .44mag.

If you're like Martin Short in the Three Amigos and you can't lift the weapon, then maybe you should ensure you travel with at least one other person - maybe you carry the bear spray, and they carry the firearm.

Finally, if you only travel very occasionally in deep backcountry northern tier bear territory (firearms of that caliber are generally not required in the lower 48), and if cost is a hurdle for you to become proficient with a sufficiently powerful firearm, then perhaps you should consider traveling with someone who does carry and travel in those areas regularly.
 
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