I'm winch dumb, can you help me?

Nonimouse

Cynical old bastard
The reason for the organization came about because other then Australia......

History
A group of the 4X4 trainers got together and did not want any government who know nothing about driving a off-highway vehicles to decide what the standards needed to be. We wanted people who had been doing this and knew far more then any government agency, to set the standards. So who were these people? They were people who had been researching for years, experimenting, reading any pertinent information reason for the organization came about because other then Australia, no country state county or cities, in the world had any regulations for controlling this program. Anyone could call themselves a expert, trainer, driver or educator. If a person says that they are a trainer you want to know that you are trainer/educator and have the education in the area of there expertise.

The I4WDTA is to certify that you know what you are doing. They offer training for people requesting to join and new development training for the trainer/educators. through I4WDTA Train the trainers classes.

There are many other things that they have to do other then reading the terrain and tire placement. You have to be able to read and understand people. The questions they ask, the way they ask them, their body language and more. You need to know that when they leave your class that they have solid correct usable information.

Every educator/teacher is given the leeway to use their own ability to teach in a way that works for them. They are not forced into a regimented way to teach. What ever works for them to get the students to understand the proper techniques. It has been shown that if a person is able to be comfortable in their way of doing things, they can do a better job what ever they are doing. That includes the 4X4 driving.


You are probably wondering how I know this? Well I was one of the people who was part the original trainers who worked on developing the origination. I am a retired Emeritus member of the I4WDTA.

I was told to retired when the wife retired. When I got the word I was to retire, it took another year to finish the contracts I had going.

When working I have trained from Fortune 500 corporations, Military, Federal government agencies to Energy companies, International corporations, communications agencies, environmental companies and more down to the individual recreation user.......


You can find the International 4-Wheel Drive Trainers' Association at https://i4wdta.org/
Da Frenchman
Not wanting to dampen your flames, but the UK, then France and Belgium were the first to have recognised civilian instruction for use of a four-wheel drive off tarmac


I'd also hasten (again with wanting to be competitive) , the I4WDTA is not 'international', it's North American (big area yes, but not the world) and it wasn't the first, nor is it the only accredited organisation of it's type to require examinations to be taken by it's instructors. Even Land Rover Experience have gone down that road...
II do think it's a shame that people form the industry don't talk to each other
 

MOguy

Explorer
I live in a 'regulated' country, you live in an unregulated country. Our laws, although based on the same concept split and evolved differently from the 1776 onward. In the UK 'liability' is a much more complex thing. Some things work well, others definitely not so well. Our Health, Safety and Environment legislation is about as tough as it gets....

We are regulated when it comes to many things. When it comes to certifications, licensing and registering things they do have certain meanings and there are certain expectations.

BUT when it comes to this topic, for me anyway, if they are certified what is the standard they have met? Even if the certifications are not based on any recognized "power that be" that is fine but they still should have some sort syllabus, outline, description of what they offer and why it is relevant.

I am not trying to beat anybody down I am just looking for information.
 
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Metcalf

Expedition Leader
I would only uses a hawse with synthetic line. Tool grade aluminium or stainless. I do use steel wire though and when I do I swap to a roller fairlead. I use string cored mild steel wire rope for extracting timber and recovery of plant
Lots of Warn winches used to come with steel ( cast or forged maybe? ) hawses back in the day for use with steel rope. It wasn't too bad. I've seen lots of them 40+ years old and still functional.
I'm sure they have drawbacks, but I don't think it is a super critical option. They are simple. No moving parts to fail. They are also very compact.

For me I use synthetic line and an aluminum hawse on all my rigs. I honestly haven't noticed a huge difference in the quality of the aluminum being an issue. The one on my flat fender is almost a decade old and was $20 or so on Amazon or Ebay. No issues. I have used that winch A LOT over the years.

I try not to get too stuck on buying a name. There are lots of good decent products out there that likely come out a different door of the same factory. I enjoy testing and evaluating things. I honestly don't find that much junk out there anymore. I think a lot of people buy the name as a status thing, not because the product really works better honestly. It might make them 'feel' a little better. It might be a HAIR more safe. I find most people RARELY actually use their recovery gear.....they don't even practice with it. They end up in really bad situations and then have to figure it all out on the fly. I just don't get that.....
 

Nonimouse

Cynical old bastard
We are regulated when it comes to many things. When it comes to certifications, licensing and registering things they do have certain meanings and there are certain expectations.

BUT when it comes to this topic, for me anyway, if they are certified what is the standard they have met? Even if the certifications are not based on any recognized "power that be" that is fine but they still should have some sort syllabus, outline, description of what they offer and why it is relevant.

I am not trying to beat anybody down I am just looking for information.
It was interesting reading Frenchies post. The information is out there but the requirement for each different country is hugely varied. Much like vehicle modifications or vehicles safety testing.
I was in the Sierra Nevada in Spain, earlier this year. I was driving a locally registered Range Rover Classic, belonging to a friend who lives part of the year in the area. Essentially you can drive anywhere that isn't marked private. Thousands of kilometres of trails, as well as river beds. But if the vehicle you are driving is modified in any way and not registered with the local ITB test centre as having approved mods, it will be impounded by the Guardia Civil (basically the police, but part of the armed forces). By mods, I mean different tyre size from standard, non standard bumpers etc. Big fines to get it back.
Got to Romania or Hungary - pretty much anything goes except driving whilst blind drunk, even then don't kill anyone and you're ok
 

Nonimouse

Cynical old bastard
Lots of Warn winches used to come with steel ( cast or forged maybe? ) hawses back in the day for use with steel rope. It wasn't too bad. I've seen lots of them 40+ years old and still functional.
I'm sure they have drawbacks, but I don't think it is a super critical option. They are simple. No moving parts to fail. They are also very compact.

For me I use synthetic line and an aluminum hawse on all my rigs. I honestly haven't noticed a huge difference in the quality of the aluminum being an issue. The one on my flat fender is almost a decade old and was $20 or so on Amazon or Ebay. No issues. I have used that winch A LOT over the years.

I try not to get too stuck on buying a name. There are lots of good decent products out there that likely come out a different door of the same factory. I enjoy testing and evaluating things. I honestly don't find that much junk out there anymore. I think a lot of people buy the name as a status thing, not because the product really works better honestly. It might make them 'feel' a little better. It might be a HAIR more safe. I find most people RARELY actually use their recovery gear.....they don't even practice with it. They end up in really bad situations and then have to figure it all out on the fly. I just don't get that.....
You are definitely singing from the same hymn sheet as me (one of the reasons I enjoyed your flat fender build, I expect)

I test a lot of stuff - mainly for magazine articles but also because I train people how to safely enjoy overland travel. So I recommend kit, mods etc. Most of the folk I deal with are doing global travel, so stuff needs to last, be easy to fix etc. The prices difference for essentially the same stuff, or the cost of stuff you could actually make, or buy at the local DIY store is appalling. I don't know if you have the same problems in the US, but here in Europe 80% of the market is overpriced, poorly made junk.

I mentioned tool grade aluminium for my personal hawse because of the stuff that I work with or around. I live in the middle of a large wetland area, drained about 1000 years or so by the local abbey (Glastonbury). It's covered in Acidic peat, but with belts of fine silt clay. This plays havoc with soft aluminium that some cheaper hawse are made from... Did you know that cast iron Hawse are called 'Mules'...no idea why. Same as the safety catch on a hook is called a 'mouse'...
 

MOguy

Explorer
It was interesting reading Frenchies post. The information is out there but the requirement for each different country is hugely varied. Much like vehicle modifications or vehicles safety testing.
I was in the Sierra Nevada in Spain, earlier this year. I was driving a locally registered Range Rover Classic, belonging to a friend who lives part of the year in the area. Essentially you can drive anywhere that isn't marked private. Thousands of kilometres of trails, as well as river beds. But if the vehicle you are driving is modified in any way and not registered with the local ITB test centre as having approved mods, it will be impounded by the Guardia Civil (basically the police, but part of the armed forces). By mods, I mean different tyre size from standard, non standard bumpers etc. Big fines to get it back.
Got to Romania or Hungary - pretty much anything goes except driving whilst blind drunk, even then don't kill anyone and you're ok
I am not worried about the countries requirements. I am interested in i4wdta requirements and what standards they require you to meet of order to be certified by i4wdta and why you would seek out somebody certification from iw4dta versus another orgnization.

Accrding to thier web page this is what is required:
How do I become an I4WDTA® certified Trainer?



Please follow these steps:
    • Print and complete the Application;
    • Provide a copy of your First-Aid certificate or other relevant documents;
    • Your resume;
    • Your sample curriculum for a one-day 4-wheel drive class.
  • To be a member of the I4WDTA®, the Candidate Trainer must have extensive and considerable 4WD experience and knowledge with at least 3 years of verifiable teaching experience, preferably to adults. In addition, the Candidate Trainer must have a valid driver license, preferably for vehicles of different classifications, and basic First Aid/CPR certification or greater.


    If you are 21 years of age or older and meet these requirements, send us your application form and an I4WDTA® Certified Trainer nearby will get in touch with you to coordinate your next steps.
 
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Nonimouse

Cynical old bastard
I am not worried about the countries requirements. I am interested in iw4dta requirements and what standards they require you to meet of order to be certified by iw4dta and why you would seek out somebody certification from iw4dta versus another orgnization.
I think you need to speak to them directly. They appear to be a small business capitalising on the need for suitable training. Like thousands of small businesses around the globe. Some of their claims appear to be a bit overstated, but it's undeniable that they have a skill set. When it comes down to it, driving off tarmac is very simple, but requires a rare commodity, common sense. Nothing you need to learn is rocket science, but if you haven't the ability to absorb common sense, you are never going to be safe. ...
 

MOguy

Explorer
I think you need to speak to them directly. They appear to be a small business capitalising on the need for suitable training. Like thousands of small businesses around the globe. Some of their claims appear to be a bit overstated, but it's undeniable that they have a skill set. When it comes down to it, driving off tarmac is very simple, but requires a rare commodity, common sense. Nothing you need to learn is rocket science, but if you haven't the ability to absorb common sense, you are never going to be safe. ...

I have emailed them and messaged Frenchie (who appears to be involved with he organization). I am waiting for their response. When I search them on the web I find a website, articles about their master trainer of the year but nothing about the training itself. I am trying to find out what I can but not getting very far.

When I search off road certification I find this:

I am don't think that i4wdt is what I am think it is.

I found this, this is more inline what I am looking for but it is directed towards 4wheelers.
 
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Nonimouse

Cynical old bastard
I have emailed them and messaged Frenchie (who appears to be involved with he organization). I am waiting for their response. When I search them on the web I find a website, articles about their master trainer of the year but nothing about the training itself. I am trying to find out what I can but not getting very far.

When I search off road certification I find this:
Try varying your search

'Winch training'
'Recovery Training'
'Training in the use of a High Lift Jack'
'Off Tarmac Driving'

Don't look for the obvious
 

MOguy

Explorer
Try varying your search

'Winch training'
'Recovery Training'
'Training in the use of a High Lift Jack'
'Off Tarmac Driving'

Don't look for the obvious
found this, this is more the type of training I was looking for. This particular training is for 4wheelers though,

 

JMacs

Observer
Going back to the original thoughts for this post, :)....

I have been reading what I can going between steel cable and synthetic. Someone mentioned that the synthetic can hold water and then can freeze. Seems like that would be a little problematic in winter. Has anyone had this issue? Or it just someone’s thought on what might happen?
 
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