Is Diesel Being Villainized In AUS and NZ Like In The Rest Of The World?

#1
India is swearing to phase out diesel by 2030, the UK and Europe are swearing to phase out diesel even sooner. "Diesel is killing all of humanity!" is the cry of the um, elite. Granted, nitrogen oxide emissions ARE indeed a very bad smog and health problem in large European and Indian cities. Here in the USA and Canada (maybe Mexico, too?) diesel has never been as popular in passenger vehicles as it has been in Europe, India, Oz, and EnZed, although big pickup trucks and vans certainly are a popular market for diesel; thus the current trend for demonizing diesel automobiles is not so vociferous in North America.

From browsing online it seems to me there's still an appreciation for diesel in trucks and 4x4s Down Under and Down Under Down Under, including some companies that specialize in petrol-to-diesel conversions.

What's the current feeling for the future of diesel automobiles in Oz and EnZed?
 
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calicamper

Expedition Leader
#2
The US even California if all places has more passenger grade diesel vehicles today than even 5yrs ago. I rode a ski lift with a diesel engineer a few yrs back. During the 12 minute lift ride he made an excelent point. And what he explained is whats currently happening today.

Gas engine development has seen billions spent by all the auto makers increasing HP and efficiency and clean burn over the last 40yrs. In comparison diesel engine dev has seen a fraction of that investment funding and research. Gas DIT engines are the last and final step there is no missed energy left in gasoline / petrol engines left un tapped. However!!!! Diesel fuel contains 30% more stored energy than the gas/petrol volume and is only just starting to see big funding in engine development.

My neighbor just purchased his first new US spec pickup in 15yrs. His new diesel truck is as quiet as my Petrol / gas Subaru yet his truck in stock form is max 500hp! and just over 900lbs per ft torque!!! He gets nearly identical mileage as my Subaru! Yes its diesel!! Amazing engine!

We have Chevy Cruz 4dr small sedans running 1.4L diesels and now for 2018 we have a awd small SUV Chevy offered in diesel format. We have the diesel Colorado/Canyon which is the updated Holden Pickup, we have several BMW offerings and Mercedes is working on next gen diesel offerings also. This is all in anti dirty diesel California where we only had 1-2 non truck ie passenger vehicle diesel offerings since the early 80’s.

So I would say no. Today diesel is getting more engine development funding than ever before because it still has lots of potential that hasnt been tapped yet.
 
#3
The issue in Europe is that there is a problem surrounding the particulate matter that is emitted - and this has come to the front after VAG were found to be cheating - and that combined with NOx is a problem.

Diesel efficency has moved forwards leaps and bounds, but at the cost of one of the previous benefits of diesels - simplicity. The Common Rail diesels require good quality, clean diesel and that can sometimes be a problem in regional/remote Australia. Combined with the tuning of the engines to within an inch of their lives, and there's problems abound with them. VW have ended up launching a V6 Amarok as the 2.0 4 cylinder was not what the Aussie market wanted -they like a big low stressed engine.

Diesel certainly isn't dead in Australia and NZ. but it's getting the first nails knocked in the coffin by the manufacturers in some cases, legislation in others. However, Toyota have been dropping the GR engined Prado and Hilux quietly as they were slow sellers, in contrast Nissan have gone petrol only with the Patrol.

The last one is a particular problem for agricultural use - the new ones with the DPF's don't like being left to idle around a paddock, and so that brings their own problems with them dying off earlier...


So, to sum it up, I'm sticking to my stuff from last century...
 
#4
Diesel certainly isn't dead in Australia and NZ. but it's getting the first nails knocked in the coffin by...legislation in others.
Really? This is disappointing to hear. What kind of legislation are the Oz and EnZed govts passing against diesel?


However, Toyota have been dropping the GR engined Prado and Hilux quietly as they were slow sellers, in contrast Nissan have gone petrol only with the Patrol.
Now that I find odd. The petrol engine Toyota models are dropped because they sell more slowly than their diesel engine cousins, but Nissan says, "Nah, we're sticking with the loser?" Hmm, is Nissan perhaps making a speculative move for the future it believes is coming?



The last one is a particular problem for agricultural use - the new ones with the DPF's don't like being left to idle around a paddock, and so that brings their own problems with them dying off earlier...

So, to sum it up, I'm sticking to my stuff from last century...

I agree, as do most enthusiasts of the old school, DIY culture, I assume. I'd prefer my own fingers in my engine bay rather than the manufacturer's electronic fingers.

Really, don't most most of the world's farmers still rely on diesel for their equipment?
 
#5
I have developed an opinion based on road experience. I haven't owned a diesel, and i'm no engineer either.

Diesel down here is super dirty, trucks and buses have ZERO emissions controls and their pollution is immediately noticeable. Commuting on motorcycles will teach you a quick lesson on this.

However, take a trip to the US, and the pollution from diesel commercial vehicles isn't as noticeable. I remember standing right behind a bus in Colorado and barely noticing the diesel smoke. I have seen this happen in various states.

I realize diesel is in fact dirtier, but it is more efficient and can be made much, much cleaner. I don't believe it should be phased out, I believe efficiency is the way to go cleaner for now, while other technologies improve and become more accessible.

Happy new year!
 

Regcabguy

Expedition Leader
#6
Regarding India,the guys need to keep their pecker in their pants. Overpopulation is the most underlying issue. The old diesels do need to be eliminated for sure.
Just two days ago I spotted a Hilux x-cab diesel, manual naturally, from Switzerland. It sported some kind of hardsided cabover. It sat up on some fairly narrow tires. I spoke to the passenger and said "Nice truck. Another rig we can't get here." It quietly putted out of the parking lot off for more adventures. I'm envious of the rig and the journey.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
#7
Diesel engine designers the real engineering types say that future engines and exhaust design should eliminate the need for the Filtering systems which are essentially a bandaid put behind century old Diesel Engine tech as a bandaid fix. Again the primary issue is simply research and dev money which diesel has seen very little compared to the gas engine.

Having said that!!! If a 2.4L gasser mildly tuned for a 7-8passenger family hauler can nearly match a 4.7L V8 and drop most of its top torque besting the V8 at 2000rpm. The Diesel like 2000rpm DIT gas engines are a very interesting alternate to the Diesel regarding grunt at low rpm.
 
#8
Really? This is disappointing to hear. What kind of legislation are the Oz and EnZed govts passing against diesel?
Requiring Euro 5 (I think) which means DPF, and common rail diesel is the most established route for some of the requirements re burning efficency. This I think is why the Nissan TD42 and the Toyota 1HZ and 1HD were dropped to be replaced by the ZD30 and 1VD.

Now that I find odd. The petrol engine Toyota models are dropped because they sell more slowly than their diesel engine cousins, but Nissan says, "Nah, we're sticking with the loser?" Hmm, is Nissan perhaps making a speculative move for the future it believes is coming?
Nissan didn't have a big diesel engine of their own for the Y62 Patrol - no big diesel engines and the ZD30 has such a bad name here they didn't dare use that - and Renault don't have a big diesel engine either in part because Volvo Trucks bought Nissan Diesel and Renault Trucks... So it was easier to use the petrol that's used in Middle East and USA market cars, which is the other main market for the Y62 Patrol.

Really, don't most most of the world's farmers still rely on diesel for their equipment?
Yep, but they still have to have DPF's in their new utes, and that causes a problem when you just troll around a paddock with the DPF getting blocked up, or there's a build up of material around the DPF (cough, Ford, cough). DPF need to do a decent journey at a decent speed (50mph+) to intiate the cleaning cycle, and running around a farm paddock doesn't do that.
 
#9
With DPF issues, etc. now, I feel like diesel is going through the same growing pains gas engines did in the early days of catalytic converters, etc. They can manage to clean the things up enough for the new regulations, but it takes some time for the manufacturers to figure out how to make it all work well.
 

Buliwyf

Viking with a Hammer
#10
Tier V emissions on diesels was one tier too far.

In the west, it has nothing to do with technology and science. It's mostly politics and feel good hippy BS. Maybe an excuse to tax diesel fuel more so they can waste that money on things most likely to hurt the environment more, while waving a green flag.

Tier IV was clean enough.
 
#11
Here in the U.S., it's definitely vilified, however a lot of that is because of irresponsible people modifying their rigs to 'roll coal'... It can be a TON more efficient than gas, but with slightly higher emissions. However, when you're putting out 20% more of certain gases, but getting 80% better mileage, it's a net decrease. The studies that I've seen have shown diesel to be considerably more efficient than gas in almost every application. There are modified diesel Jettas and Bugs getting close to 80 MPG, vs the 45 MPG that the factory specifies, versus the 35 that's spec'd for the gas versions... The vilification is just hippy BS nonsense, as posted earlier, EXCEPT for the idiots rolling coal, those guys deserve to get flak, IMO.
 
#12
My theory is there is a glut of unsold petrol / gas , diesel doesn't go off , petrol does , and The rush for diesel caught the fuel producers out .
Jet engines use a form of paraffin, very close to diesel but there is no outcry over those ?
 
#13
Jet engines use a form of paraffin, very close to diesel but there is no outcry over those ?
Probably because it's harder to feed them a different fuel that doesn't lead to much faster engine wear and their emissions profile is very different than a diesel anyway (due to how they burn the fuel). Jet fuel is closer to kerosene anyway, so it's a big lighter / cleaner than diesel.
 

Regcabguy

Expedition Leader
#14
Tier V emissions on diesels was one tier too far.

In the west, it has nothing to do with technology and science. It's mostly politics and feel good hippy BS. Maybe an excuse to tax diesel fuel more so they can waste that money on things most likely to hurt the environment more, while waving a green flag.

Tier IV was clean enough.
Agree 100%. A ran into a Swiss couple at out local supermarket. They were driving a Toyota Hilux extracab,manual trans and diesel. I said" another truck we can't get here". It had a hardsided side entrance camper mounted. They fired it up,and quietly putted out of the parking lot. I'm envious. A shop here "lightens" newer diesels here. What a mess of emissions stuff.
 
#15
California does seem to be trying to kill them.
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In 2013 they recently imposed an addition burden on diesel owners that gas owners dont have to deal with. Specifically CA typically collects an extra "smog abatement" fee on newly purchased vehicles for the first 6 years. That is, they dont have to smog because is believed that since everything is new and in working order it should operate properly for at least that long and therefore be clean, so they just charge you a fee, letting you skip having to go in and actually have it checked.
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In 2013 CA eliminated this for diesels making them smog every 2 years no matter what. While the criteria for certifying a diesel obviously has to be different, different fuel different tests, fair enough. There's no reason that it should be assumed that new diesels emissions equipment wont operate properly for the first 6 years just as a new gas vehicles does. Seems an unfair burden to me to geared to making diesel ownership less desirable.