New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

mpinco

Expedition Leader
Do you think engineers don't understand how to compute margins? Seriously? Have you ever done any analysis? Did you read the spec?

Engineering is not based on common sense. They use 'math' and 'science.'

Can you image being in a Design review:

Engineering Lead:" "Here's the structural and thermal analysis that we performed and the documented validation testing we did"

mpinco: yea, common sense says that's BS. Also you cant use a 4 cylinder. Did you know the tongue weight on some campers are higher than listed?

:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
Been there. Done that. I'm sure LR applied that process to their product spec. Well, derate again.

It's called derating to less than spec. Ask your legal dept.

Just derate and work below specs. Realize that your actual may be much more than the manufacturers 'spec'.
 

Blaise

Well-known member
You also have no idea what I'd buy, I've stated numerous times on here that I'd consider the Defender in a few years assuming they prove the reliability.
Here's an idea, for your sake: If the only thing you're worried about is the reliability, why not relax for a year or three and see if it meets you standards? Why keep beating a dead horse?
 

Buliwyf

Viking with a Hammer
The newer hitch is rated at 770lbs.
So good for an empty trailer about 7700#. I usually go for 20% tongue weight for stability. So that's only 3850. That's all I'd tow with that rig. Which sounds about right. A larger overlandy trailer, or a tandem jet ski trailer with long neck and tool box and fuel, etc. etc. 25' TT? Nope, not me.

Do you think engineers don't understand how to compute margins? Seriously? Have you ever done any analysis? Did you read the spec?

Engineering is not based on common sense. They use 'math' and 'science.'

Can you image being in a Design review:

Engineering Lead:" "Here's the structural and thermal analysis that we performed and the documented validation testing we did"

mpinco: yea, common sense says that's BS. Also you cant use a 4 cylinder. Did you know the tongue weight on some campers are higher than listed?

:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: Stay in your lane dude.
You're assuming that the engineers write the specs. Marketing writes the specs. They just have to squeeze them past screaming angry engineers and lawyers. Firing an engineer from time to time, helps inflate those specs to whatever you want.
 

Dendy Jarrett

Expedition Portal Admin
Staff member
Side Bar - And not in any way to take away from the original intent of this thread, but since you brought it up:


Dendy Jarrett said:
And as to the Porsche - Heck, I could pull my 27 foot airstream with a Prius, but will it stop it? Will it handle cornering? Will it handle grades? No.
DreadLocks Stated: Lets see, Will it stop it? the Porsche has 6 piston brembo calipers on rotors just as big and potentially bigger (on GTS) than any truck.. Yes it will, amazingly fast, but your wheels are always dirty w/brake dust.
Will it handle cornering? Lol, really wanna put whatever your driving up against any Porsche on cornering? Of course it will.. Did you even watch the video I linked?
Will it handle grades? Well with base models starting at 300hp, and top end models reaching V12 Diesels and >500HP with an Aisin Transmission in all of em rated for like 800tq, the'll be passing you going up a mountain grade.. You can get em with center and rear diff locks, two speed transfer case, Electronic Sway bar disconnects, Air Ride Suspension and all sorts of great things OEM.
I count 51 models listed, 8 of them exceed the max weight ratings of a Cayenne, half eh?.. and CanAmRV has been modifying this chassis since ~2004 for carrying extra tongue weight.. here's someones feedback from the mods..



View attachment 595170



Lets see, Will it stop it? the Porsche has 6 piston brembo calipers on rotors just as big and potentially bigger (on GTS) than any truck.. Yes it will, amazingly fast, but your wheels are always dirty w/brake dust.
Will it handle cornering? Lol, really wanna put whatever your driving up against any Porsche on cornering? Of course it will.. Did you even watch the video I linked?
Will it handle grades? Well with base models starting at 300hp, and top end models reaching V12 Diesels and >500HP with an Aisin Transmission in all of em rated for like 800tq, the'll be passing you going up a mountain grade.. You can get em with center and rear diff locks, two speed transfer case, Electronic Sway bar disconnects, Air Ride Suspension and all sorts of great things OEM.

Side Bar - And not in any way to take away from the original intent of this thread, but since you brought it up:
I've seen the set ups that Can Am does on Airstreams on cars that are in no way rated to the tow capacity. And many of them pull with no problem, stop and handle as well. BUT, I've seen many roll over accidents with Airstreams and many of them have CanAm set ups (mostly mini-vans). And maybe the laws are different in Canada, but here in the states, if you have an accident pulling a trailer that exceeds the capacity of the car, and heaven forbid another car is involved and someone is killed, you may be held criminally negligent for having pulled the trailer knowingly with that set up. CanAm would not be on the hook in most cases for liability.
It looks like you are pulling a 25 to 27 foot with that Porsche and that's great, but what is the tow capacity and hitch weight capacity versus the weight of the trailer and the hitch weight of the trailer. My Tommy Bahama 27 has a hitch weight of 928lbs. I can't even tow it with a Land Rover much less many vehicles under a 3/4 ton truck. Many do tow Airstreams with Audi, BMW, Porsche and other exotics. Me? I don't want to tempt fate. I also don't look good in stripes or orange jump suits.

Now back to your normal Defender discussions. DJ
 

dreadlocks

Well-known member
Never seen a minivan that was designed for towing but its not least but uncommon for European SUV's to have 8klb tow rating.. pretty standard stuff, not the least bit uncommon, you'll have a harder time finding one with a low tow rating.. Domestic SUVs, you wont come close to that until your up to full size Burbans/Escalades.

My Diesel Audi Q7 weighs 5500lbs and its rated for a GWVR of 7000lbs, with 1500lb of payload capacity you can comfortably bump up a couple hundred pounds on the hitch if you increase support for WD, and keep vehicle under gross weight by a long shot if its not packed to the brim and overloaded too.. The platform is rated for 7700lbs of towing WITHOUT Weight Distribution.. an F150 is rated for 5000lbs of towing without WD, with WD its like 12,000lbs.. Already its better rated on the low end than the Truck, and European Vehicles never get a higher rating for with WD because they have never seen one of those contraptions in their life over there so they dont rate em at all.

Trucks are pretty much exclusively an american thing, and yet there's a whole world out there towing all sorts of stuff safely all over the place without 3/4 ton American trucks readily available.

As my existing trailer only weighs a mere 7000lbs gross, its way beyond any Jeep but comfortably within most Euro SUV's I dont really care about ability to pull a 30 foot glamper but the Defender sure looks sweet... Did I miss something or is offroading with a giant airstream not really possible regardless your truck, so who cares about those big land yachts when nobody's satisfied with this thing offroad, which is it now?
 
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Christian P.

Expedition Leader
Staff member
The beating of the dead horse is the exact reason I call it trolling. The same repetitive crap, over and over and over again.
This thread is going to end up in history books as the supreme example of beating a dead horse. Generation of students will read and re-read the comments here and write essays on it. Some of you guys will become famous.
 

Recommended books for Overlanding

mpinco

Expedition Leader
Many more post are on the table. JLR 'rationalization' by August. Platform consolidation and models deleted.

Velar and Disco discontinued?
 

JeepColorado

Active member
Many more post are on the table. JLR 'rationalization' by August. Platform consolidation and models deleted.

Velar and Disco discontinued?

As the Grenadier and the Bronco come onto the seen there will be new comparisons. If LR does an SVO Defender.... I wonder how much of this sensitivity, sometimes overreaction, from the LR faithful of legitimate criticism has to do with seeing the world as they know it change?

Overlanding is being redefined. The vehicles that were once the icons- the ones that literally stood for what overlanding was- that place on their pedestal is threatened by the Jeeps and Broncos of the world and the fact that America finally has a revitalized mid-size pickup truck market and the ZR2 Bison, the Ranger's new Off-Road packages, the Gladiator is the aftermarket's darling and Toyota needs to redo the Tacoma- more competition than ever for overlanding dollars. Even full-size trucks are legitimate- with the Super Duty Tremor, Powerwagon and what AEV is doing with the Prospector packages.

Scott Brady's title for his Namibia review of the Defender was "The New Defender takes on the World" he wasn't wrong- it's probably been the overlanding champion for a long time the way that Jeep has been the trails champion, but as overlanding changes and Jeep changes, and other competitors come in- as Jeep is encroaching into the overlanding space and gaining ground and LR isn't doing much to encroach on the backcountry adventure/trail space. The Defender's legacy- LR's legacy is as threatened as it's been since they stopped production.
 

T-Willy

Well-known member
As the Grenadier and the Bronco come onto the seen there will be new comparisons. If LR does an SVO Defender.... I wonder how much of this sensitivity, sometimes overreaction, from the LR faithful of legitimate criticism has to do with seeing the world as they know it change?

Overlanding is being redefined. The vehicles that were once the icons- the ones that literally stood for what overlanding was- that place on their pedestal is threatened by the Jeeps and Broncos of the world and the fact that America finally has a revitalized mid-size pickup truck market and the ZR2 Bison, the Ranger's new Off-Road packages, the Gladiator is the aftermarket's darling and Toyota needs to redo the Tacoma- more competition than ever for overlanding dollars. Even full-size trucks are legitimate- with the Super Duty Tremor, Powerwagon and what AEV is doing with the Prospector packages.

Scott Brady's title for his Namibia review of the Defender was "The New Defender takes on the World" he wasn't wrong- it's probably been the overlanding champion for a long time the way that Jeep has been the trails champion, but as overlanding changes and Jeep changes, and other competitors come in- as Jeep is encroaching into the overlanding space and gaining ground and LR isn't doing much to encroach on the backcountry adventure/trail space. The Defender's legacy- LR's legacy is as threatened as it's been since they stopped production.
It's notable too that Toyota will bat last with the 300, or their rumored back-to-basics offering (of course, we'll see) on the heels of the all of these new wagon offerings.

I'm interested to see Bronco's trail vs. touring positioning relative to Defender and JLU. I expect it'll have good off road chops (offering mechanical lockers, but IFS). Payload (for me) will will be key. They could hit a sweet spot.

A new era of touring wagons, lots of forthcoming comparisons to make.
 
Out of all that crap I just read, I'll lead in on one thing. @JeepColorado show me one place or time when I called you a name outside of Troll or Trolling? if you do not like the stereotype of the online action, do not do it! If that offends you than I openly apologize for "name calling" especially after you wrote on 110 pages or so busting on anything you can think of for the Defender, the mindset of JLR owners, our class of people, who we are and so forth. Yet, overlooking all the facts that show the Defender out of the box on SPEC is more capable by SPEC than the Rubicon.........period and proven by OEM SPEC sheets I published a few pages back to include a few other OEMs! So if me calling you a troll is name calling than I apologize and it will never happen again and I hope you accept my apology as it truly is sincere; your actions however are unacceptable IMO and do not play victim for getting backlash for the things you said and the JLR community you have been so feverishly disrespecting.

On that note, you then follow saying you may buy one! If all the other things you said lead you to wanting to now buy one, then you do not even believe your logic is sane; or do you?

And then I will follow up with this notion that "we" Land Rover people feel JLR left us behind but I haven't seen anyone else say that except you! Why project that on us so many times only to hear us continually say that we do not believe that, are not saying it and again do not believe it. Do some maybe feel that, could be, but haven't see it here other than you and @EricTyrrell saying it so who is this "we" population you speak of?

Finally, I will ask that you speak of this amazing capability and when you are "older and want to stay on forest roads" you will buy a Defender but yet you have produced exactly one photo of you in your overly capable Rubicon (and it is capable) on exactly that........a forest road with 4 inches of snow on it; do you honestly need more or are you compensating somewhere in needs vs. wants in spec and ability?

And then you say we are busting on Jeeps and Tacos and everyone else, but then I go back no less than 20 pages and I do not see anyone busting on any vehicle outside of displaying factual deficiencies or SPECS published by the OEM or their users. Matter of fact, I can't find one person on here who openly says Jeep are garbage and you seem to think "we" have said that and are bashing Jeeps and that is clearly not factual by any sense. You on the other hand have dozens of posts hammering specifically on Defender; most of which are feelings and almost all of which are incorrect based on specs, facts, and science. On that note, many of these statements were made stating incorrect SPECS or differences in capabilities on a vehicle that was not even released yet, then when it was released and you were proven wrong, attempted to bash it on a completely bias video of rock crawling Defender with an inexperienced driver and it blew up in your face. Then you still blow past it and then brush off any SPEC sheet that shows clear contradiction of what you spit for knowledge as more or less capable.

My LR3 by SPEC to your 2019 or 2020, not sure what year yours is (nice Rubi, I mentioned that as I like Rubis) is less capable on paper in 2020 brand new production than my 2008 LR3...........FACT. That is not feelings, that is FACT by OEM released SPEC sheet; same goes for the Defender. Truth be told you are not the only one who has openly displayed how we want JLR reliability to come on par with our expectation; on that, we are hopeful and up until the other day you have been nothing but negative across the board. I do not care what anyone drives, I do care if someone comes into my world and degrades my every decision and love for a vehicle that has been nothing but epic for me and my lifestyle and blows the doors off safety in every way shape or form when it comes to family and friend safety of my passengers.......on or off-road, JLR has Jeep beat and not even close in fact or feelings in so many more ways that you can open up your field of view to see.

On that note, I said it no less than 5 times on this BS thread, I am actually in the market for a Gladiator at some point for some outside work I do; I am patiently waiting the potential for the diesel and the driveline package option I hope is going to be in it; that is my holding point as I think someone else mentioned here as well.

With that said, I know clearly what I am getting into if I buy a Jeep and I don't say that Jeep issues are "Jeep Spirit" when they are deficiencies; that is called denial. Jeep needs to fix some things that they have not gotten right for decades just as JLR needs to and is trying to. With that said, I would surely not spit pages of failures and hopes and dreams of a vehicle to follow up with "I might buy one now" cuz believe me my friend, that is not what you said and surely not how you portrayed yourself on here for the last 6 months or so..............what you say matters and how you portray yourself is character; only you are accountable for that just like what we said on here as individuals.

So again, I apologize for the name calling as you of a Troll, I will not digress in saying you are carrying out the act of trolling though.

So feelings matter, but facts, stats, and science does not................that is called TROLLING!
 
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mpinco

Expedition Leader
I see them dumping Jaguar sedans and SUVs I doubt they’d dump the Disco same with the Velar.
Per Forbes:

"....Industry experts reckon the Land Rover arm of Jaguar Land Rover (JLR) could use some rationalization as it fights its way out of a self-imposed diesel-dead end......."

I don't see how Velar fits the LR image while D5 volumes are below what is needed. Jaguar may be the anchor but LR could be downsized to fewer platforms. Even the new Defender sales have been characterized as 'disappointing'.
 
Per Forbes:

"....Industry experts reckon the Land Rover arm of Jaguar Land Rover (JLR) could use some rationalization as it fights its way out of a self-imposed diesel-dead end......."

I don't see how Velar fits the LR image while D5 volumes are below what is needed. Jaguar may be the anchor but LR could be downsized to fewer platforms. Even the new Defender sales have been characterized as 'disappointing'.
I am hoping JLR is doing what FORD did and is working; dump any like vehicle not making money. I think ford is only making like 2-3 cars now if I am not mistaken and full speed on SUV and Truck; which has been their staple for a long time.

RR: Sport, Base, Evogue, I'd even say maybe lose the Evoque for D90 but I know Evoque does sell to the rich college kids.
LR: Defender and Discovery 5, ditch the Discovery Sport and make a plain Jane D5.
 
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