New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

mpinco

Expedition Leader
JLR are back in profit and i stand by what i wrote
Only because of a $3.5B write off that is carried forward with accounting. JLR is still consolidating while Tata is seeking partners.

The Defender was "old" and not invested in because they were part of the now defunct Rover Group. LR barely survived. The D5 might be another 'best product' that sold ..... 450 in the US last month while Jeep sold 24K.

Range Rover left the US and returned in 1987. The LR dealership was a small building that is now nondescript used cars. What resurrected them? The D1 which was basically a new body on a Defender. The path was there for Defender improvements, they just couldn't afford them.
 
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Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
Only because of a $3.5B write off that is carried forward with accounting. JLR is still consolidating while Tata is seeking partners.

The Defender was "old" and not invested in because they were part of the now defunct Rover Group. LR barely survived. The D5 might be another 'best product' that sold ..... 450 in the US last month while Jeep sold 24K.

Seriously, you can't have it both ways. Either you take advantage of technology - including suspension, brake materials, and so on (not just computer screens), or you get left behind in capabilities. The LR Defender was left behind decades ago due to to advances in technology (materials and computers controlling such things as traction control etc.).

The Defender wasn't sold in that time period you talk about, and you're only thinking of the US.
Jeep sold the Wrangler to both the "rock crawling" fraternity (both actual ones and wannabes) as well as to the hairdressers. It's a cheap car, built cheaply, and is cheap in quality. So of course, a cheaper car is sold more.
However, look in Europe. There's a reason there is not many Wranglers around. It's simply too cheap, too unsafe, and not that capable when it comes down to it. But of course, you're not allowed to swap axles and throw a 20" lift on it, nor are you allowed to drive around with your tyres outside of the car. So there's that.


They did invest in making the Defender the most capable offroader they can produce (again). No, there is only so much you do with old tech.
Let me mention the Wrangler again: It is the lowest common denominator, loved by "bros" and hairdressers alike. It is a low budget, low tech, easily modified by rednecks and the like, and easily "prettied up" by the barbies of this world (no, not a hint at the doll barbie, other than metaphorically).

Why didn't jeep invest in making it up to date? Because people still buy it for two reasons: Image and the fact that you can modify it with a welder and huge tires. And if you have a little more money, you can overcome one of the many flaws of the Wrangler: Cheap and not particularly strong axles and throw a Dana axle in there.

Lowest. Common. Denominator.

Again: How much does the Wrangler tow? How much does it carry?
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
Only because of a $3.5B write off that is carried forward with accounting. JLR is still consolidating while Tata is seeking partners.
Didn't Jeep also get money due to the car industry bailout? I'm pretty sure they did.

Range Rover left the US and returned in 1987. The LR dealership was a small building that is now nondescript used cars. What resurrected them? The D1 which was basically a new body on a Defender. The path was there for Defender improvements, they just couldn't afford them.
LOL, you seem to think Land Rover's HQs was in the nondescript building in the US? You have seriously got to be kidding me. That has to be one of the poorest arguments in this thread, and that says something. Oh, wait, it is mpinco, so of course dishonesty is no hindrance at all.

Seriously, though, you would have been okay with it if this has been incremental? Then you wouldn't have clamoured for solid axles and using the lowest tech possible to scrape through regulations?
 

blackangie

Well-known member
Only because of a $3.5B write off that is carried forward with accounting. JLR is still consolidating while Tata is seeking partners.

The Defender was "old" and not invested in because they were part of the now defunct Rover Group. LR barely survived. The D5 might be another 'best product' that sold ..... 450 in the US last month while Jeep sold 24K.

Range Rover left the US and returned in 1987. The LR dealership was a small building that is now nondescript used cars. What resurrected them? The D1 which was basically a new body on a Defender. The path was there for Defender improvements, they just couldn't afford them.
Factually that's not the only reason, they have been undertaking a 2billion pound cost saving exercise.

LR has already partnered with BMW, this is tipped to expand to engines like the V8 in hybrid form.

Also did you notice how many D5s sold worldwide last year and their average pricepoint and how much that equals to in dollars.

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I owned an LR3, so I want to agree, but I also sold it after getting tired of dealing with it. When I sold it, only women were interested. Around here, anyone who works with their hands for a living, or in industry, forresty, etc drive trucks, and I don't mean the Ridgeline kind. To this day, the only Land Rovers around here are owned by women and wanna-be gangbangers.
Wow, okay Boomer. So you really are "that guy" that doesn't think women are capable of overlanding or off roading. I'll bet some of the women who compete in Rebelle Rally every year (with LR3/LR4's no less) might have a sexist bone to pick with you. It appears that your low opinion of women is stuck back in the Camel Trophy days.
 

blackangie

Well-known member
Wow, okay Boomer. So you really are "that guy" that doesn't think women are capable of overlanding or off roading. I'll bet some of the women who compete in Rebelle Rally every year (with LR3/LR4's no less) might have a sexist bone to pick with you. It appears that your low opinion of women is stuck back in the Camel Trophy days.
To be fair that's a very good point, plenty of women offroaders out there and skilled ones at that, no doubt there are some on this very forum.

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Don't mean to one-up you, but I drive a D5, and even though it's 800lbs lighter than a LR4, and has Terrain Response 2, even the LR4 guys look down on me. So I understand your pain, even if I done feel it - I have no brand loyalty to "ideals" but rather to proven capabilities. The D5 kills it, and the Defender promises similarly extraordinary performance, so I'm hopefully optimistic even if the front end looks just a little dated already.

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I've got nothing but respect for the D5, and if for some reason my order for a Defender falls through, I'll be ordering a D5. I drove one on the test track at Overland Expo 2017 West, then I ran my LR4 with Duratrac tires through the same course. Not even close, the D5 was clearly the winner. I've also off roaded with the D5 on a trip sponsored by my JLR dealership. I couldn't hang with the D5's stock capabilities. It absolutely made the D1 and D2's look silly. For some, the D5 looks more like mom's minivan, but who cares? Aren't we supposed to be about function over form; unless you're EricTyrrell and you need your vehicle to look macho to compensate for something. :ROFLMAO:
 
If anyone is still interested in the capabilities of the new Defender and not just it’s “softer” looks :rolleyes: - I’ve got some great news about the towing capacity. One of the aspects that attracted me to both the D5 and 2020 Defender was the amazing towing capacity (8201 lbs). I plan on towing a Black Series HQ19 caravan trailer and need a workhorse of a tow vehicle for a trip I’m planning to Alaska. I was concerned about the tongue weight maximum (330 lbs) listed on the US website:

TOWING
  • Unbraked trailer (lbs)1,653
  • Maximum towing (lbs)8,201
  • Maximum coupling point (nose weight) (lbs)330
  • Maximum vehicle and trailer combination (GTW) (lbs)15,175 (5 seats) / 15,365 (5+2 seats)
Given the overall towing capacity, I thought this was pretty anemic. Tongue/hitch weight is usually around 10% of total towing capacity. I wrote to JLR about this and it turns out this is a typo on the website. The maximum tongue weight should be 771 lbs and they are fixing the specs on the site.
 
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Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
If anyone is still interested in the capabilities of the new Defender and not just it’s “softer” looks :rolleyes: - I’ve got some great news about the towing capacity. One of the aspects that attracted me to both the D5 and 2020 Defender was the amazing towing capacity (8201 lbs). I plan on towing a Black Series HQ19 caravan trailer and need a workhorse of a tow vehicle for a trip I’m planning to Alaska. I was concerned about the tongue weight maximum (330 lbs) listed on the US website:

TOWING
  • Unbraked trailer (lbs)1,653
  • Maximum towing (lbs)8,201
  • Maximum coupling point (nose weight) (lbs)330
  • Maximum vehicle and trailer combination (GTW) (lbs)15,175 (5 seats) / 15,365 (5+2 seats)
Given the overall towing capacity, I thought this was pretty anemic. Tongue/hitch weight is usually around 10% of total towing capacity. I wrote to JLR about this and it turns out this is a typo on the website. The maximum tongue weight should be 771 lbs and they are fixing the specs on the site.
That's a damn good catch!
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
Factually that's not the only reason, they have been undertaking a 2billion pound cost saving exercise.

LR has already partnered with BMW, this is tipped to expand to engines like the V8 in hybrid form.

Also did you notice how many D5s sold worldwide last year and their average pricepoint and how much that equals to in dollars.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
That 2 billion cost savings is what I referred to as consolidation. Jaguar and Land Rover design centers have now been collapsed into one center that has enabled "redundancies"/layoffs. And while JLR is partnering with BMW on powertrains, Tata is pushing for a broader 'partnership' with either BMW or Geely. That new partnership is really a merger with Tata keeping a controlling interest, say 51%?

My point on the original Defender sold between 1990 and 2016 is that the basic design was rebodied as the Discovery 1. The Defender underpinnings supported a new 'model' that sold very well in the US, at roughly 1400 per month or 3X the D5. There was a path to upgrade the original Defender, LR just couldn't afford the investment as they went through 4 owners (Rover Group - now defunct, BMW, Ford and now Tata). I'm sure their product roadmaps were in disarray, especially for a product that takes 5 years to get to market.

So while we can all argue over the old Defender and how it was never moved forward, the fact is they overtly made the choice to not invest in the Defender and ride the D1 product through the early and late 90's, upgrading to the D2 before the complete redesign for the LR3/4.

As for the D5 I personally don't "look down" on it. It is very capable. Where LR missed was in the retention of design attributes that McGovern referred to as a very thick book of LR must-haves. I think he tossed that book out the window and restyled a Ford Explorer. Gone is the command seating, tall windows, upright windshield, large rear swing door and a host of other attributes. As LR again said, financials drove the decisions. The one piece lift hatch was rationalized as lower cost over the two piece lift/tail gate. Well you alienated the LR buyers with what looks like a minivan, albeit a very capable minivan.

So while you can sell the product vision of "the best" whatever, the bottom line is that all manufacturers make trade-off decisions in the pursuit of keeping a business an on-going and viable enterprise. The original Defender was sacrificed for the D1. The D5 will be sacrificed (not selling enough to justify) for the D6. The new 'partner', either BMW or Geely or a yet to be named third partner who now control 49%, will again impact the product roadmap and investment decisions. Such is the life of a manufacturing company. Jeep will see that as the new partners, the PSA Group, participate in product decisions. There will be compromises to keep volumes where they need to be to ensure profit. Maybe Jeep moves from 1-star to 2-star. Maybe LR see's the light and moves from 5-star to 4-star but regains attributes that people expect from LR's. Maybe McGovern rediscovers that LR 'bible' gathering dust on his shelf. We might even see solid axle LR's again, sourced from Dana who supplies all Jeep axles variants, from 30 to 44's. The onboard operating systems have already converged on Blackberry QNX. Both LR and Jeep now use the same software, just different skins.

We may even see the PSA Group be the next LR 'partner'. That was actually a serious discussion. Jeep and LR could be under the same umbrella.
 
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Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
That 2 billion cost savings is what I referred to as consolidation. Jaguar and Land Rover design centers have now been collapsed into one center that has enabled "redundancies"/layoffs. And while JLR is partnering with BMW on powertrains, Tata is pushing for a broader 'partnership' with either BMW or Geely. That new partnership is really a merger with Tata keeping a controlling interest, say 51%?

My point on the original Defender sold between 1990 and 2016 is that the basic design was rebodied as the Discovery 1. The Defender underpinnings supported a new 'model' that sold very well in the US, at roughly 1400 per month or 3X the D5. There was a path to upgrade the original Defender, LR just couldn't afford the investment as they went through 4 owners (Rover Group - now defunct, BMW, Ford and now Tata). I'm sure their product roadmaps were in disarray, especially for a product that takes 5 years to get to market.

So while we can all argue over the old Defender and how it was never moved forward, the fact is they overtly made the choice to not invest in the Defender and ride the D1 product through the early and late 90's, upgrading to the D2 before the complete redesign for the LR3/4.

As for the D5 I personally don't "look down" on it. It is very capable. Where LR missed was in the retention of design attributes that McGovern referred to as a very thick book of LR must-haves. I think he tossed that book out the window and restyled a Ford Explorer. Gone is the command seating, tall windows, upright windshield, large rear swing door and a host of other attributes. As LR again said, financials drove the decisions. The one piece lift hatch was rationalized as lower cost over the two piece lift/tail gate. Well you alienated the LR buyers with what looks like a minivan, albeit a very capable minivan.

So while you can sell the product vision of "the best" whatever, the bottom line is that all manufacturers make trade-off decisions in the pursuit of keeping a business an on-going and viable enterprise. The original Defender was sacrificed for the D1. The D5 will be sacrificed (not selling enough to justify) for the D6. The new 'partner', either BMW or Geely or a yet to be named third partner who now control 49%, will again impact the product roadmap and investment decisions. Such is the life of a manufacturing company. Jeep will see that as the new partners, the PSA Group, participate in product decisions. There will be compromises to keep volumes where they need to be to ensure profit. Maybe Jeep moves from 1-star to 2-star. Maybe LR see's the light and moves from 5-star to 4-star but regains attributes that people expect from LR's. Maybe McGovern rediscovers that LR 'bible' gathering dust on his shelf. We might even see solid axle LR's again, sourced from Dana who supplies all Jeep axles variants, from 30 to 44's. The onboard operating systems have already converged on Blackberry QNX. Both LR and Jeep now use the same software, just different skins.

We may even see the PSA Group be the next LR 'partner'. That was actually a serious discussion.
Again, you posted this previously:
Only because of a $3.5B write off that is carried forward with accounting.
You are certainly not adverse to moving the goal posts whenever you're confronted.

How much did Chrysler (and therefore Jeep) get from the bailout? And how much "consolidation" was there after that and after Fiat entered the scene?
I think you will find that the answer to all three of these questions are "a lot", or broken down: Billions, a lot of firings to save money, and the third: Even more firings to save even more money.

Oh, and of course: How much has Jeep (and Chrysler) "written off" - especially due to the bailout and around the time Fiat entered?
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
What I still can't grasp is how someone is one moment claiming the old, low tech is better, while the next moment arguing that they should have updated it constantly. Which is it, exactly? It is not clear to me what the point is arguing those two at the same time. It's cognitive dissonance at best.
If you truly believe they should have updated it along the way to keep it current, you should be rejoicing that the Defender is once again the best offroader LR can build. It is finally up to date again.
 

mpinco

Expedition Leader
And as the calls for partnerships and mergers increase, the long understood Gartner Hype Curve is still applicable as we enter the Trough of Dissillusionment for electrification. The "Chasm" is yet to be achieved, which will accelerate mergers.


technology-adoption.png
 

DieselRanger

Well-known member
If anyone is still interested in the capabilities of the new Defender and not just it’s “softer” looks :rolleyes: - I’ve got some great news about the towing capacity. One of the aspects that attracted me to both the D5 and 2020 Defender was the amazing towing capacity (8201 lbs). I plan on towing a Black Series HQ19 caravan trailer and need a workhorse of a tow vehicle for a trip I’m planning to Alaska. I was concerned about the tongue weight maximum (330 lbs) listed on the US website:

TOWING
  • Unbraked trailer (lbs)1,653
  • Maximum towing (lbs)8,201
  • Maximum coupling point (nose weight) (lbs)330
  • Maximum vehicle and trailer combination (GTW) (lbs)15,175 (5 seats) / 15,365 (5+2 seats)
Given the overall towing capacity, I thought this was pretty anemic. Tongue/hitch weight is usually around 10% of total towing capacity. I wrote to JLR about this and it turns out this is a typo on the website. The maximum tongue weight should be 771 lbs and they are fixing the specs on the site.
330kg is about 730 lbs so likely was a conversion error / unit error.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T337A using Tapatalk
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
And as the calls for partnerships and mergers increase, the long understood Gartner Hype Curve is still applicable as we enter the Trough of Dissillusionment for electrification. The "Chasm" is yet to be achieved, which will accelerate mergers.


View attachment 552154
Non-sequitur much?
Talk about a tangent of a tangent. Your frigging beloved Wrangler is part of Fiat Chrysler! Not only was it part of Chrysler for a long time, but now part of Fiat Chrysler. The American car industry is very much the history of mergers.How the hell do you hold that against Land Rover? Of course, so is it globally, but only recently have they been able to match the merger-happy American (I suspect it used to be harder to merge when the companies were in different countries.
 
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