New Defender Rage/Hate Thread
- Thread starter DieselRanger
- Start date
FWIW.. My Wife drives the 4Runner and i drive the Tundra... they are both dead nuts reliable, same as the Land cruisers I have owned. The counterpoint were the 3 LR3's and the L322 we owned as well.. they were the exact opposite. So no i am not the target demographic.Every bit as capable as your 4runner, more comfortable and you don't have to duck when you see a rover buddy and your driving your 4runnerI think your are exactly the demographic they are after TBH....guys who love rovers but want something a bit more civilized for the modern world without giving up capability.
JeepColorado
Well-known member
The New Defender Luxury Urban Pack...."A Ride So Clean You'll Absolutely, Positively Never Even Think about getting it Dirty"
nickw
Adventurer
I'm sure Toyota didn't think a guy with (2) Defenders were their demographic either...but you own two of them. But separate out demographic from folks that plan on buying...I think you fit the mold, fan of the old rovers and general styling cues, fan of the brand distinction but want something that is more livable on a daily basis while not giving up 4x4 capability....my hunch is that is who they are after.
Holds very little value from a crowd of people who most likely haven’t seen in person. Let alone driven it
Lovetheworld
Active member
I never said that NCAP equals sales.
Anyway, SUVs are dominating. And that means no real 4x4s. It means people are buying a RAV4 or Audi Q model or whatever, rather than a Landcruiser.
At least it does in Europe.
And it other countries they are selling more proper 4x4s but there the Defender was not selling or very poorly.
With a more luxury SUV type vehicle, they can sell in that same flow of popular SUVs. And anything with a history (like Fiat 500, Mini etc) sells well.
So it makes perfect sense.
If people liked the old Defender so much, they should have bought them.
Anyway, SUVs are dominating. And that means no real 4x4s. It means people are buying a RAV4 or Audi Q model or whatever, rather than a Landcruiser.
At least it does in Europe.
And it other countries they are selling more proper 4x4s but there the Defender was not selling or very poorly.
With a more luxury SUV type vehicle, they can sell in that same flow of popular SUVs. And anything with a history (like Fiat 500, Mini etc) sells well.
So it makes perfect sense.
If people liked the old Defender so much, they should have bought them.
Lovetheworld
Active member
Who is saying that or doing that? Nobody is claiming that.
There was a comment of a Jeep Wrangler being "safe enough", so the old Defender could also be safe enough.
I just pointed out limitations to the ladder chassis design.
However, the new Land Rover is not there because of safety. Because of the amount of sales. The low amount that the old one had, and the potential for much higher sales of the new one, modeled as a kind of retro SUV.
JeepColorado
Well-known member
Are Jeep Wranglers Safe? We Look at the Test Results
Are Jeep Wranglers safe in an accident? We took a look at all the available safety information on the JL Jeep Wrangler to give you an answer.
Some sanity in all of the crash test conversation from Motortrend
Personally, I've never known nor cared about the crash test rating of a vehicle I was purchasing. Any modern vehicle is "safe" relatively speaking, much more so than what's come before it. I don't need the safest vehicle I can possibly buy- I'd rather have a vehicle that's plenty safe, but also has some character and soul.
soflorovers
Well-known member
The new Defender can be optioned with 33" from factory. LR engineers have said a 35" will fit with some suspension re-calibration (i.e. a Johnson Rod style lift). My LR3 came with a 30" from factory and now it's sitting on a 35" (Previous owner has told me that a 37" can fit, but it's not worth it). It can be done.
"It's just interesting to see people drool over something that so clearly runs counter to the nature of the company" To address your point, LR has stayed relatively true to their original goal. The new Defender can be had with center and rear lockers and a 33" Duratrac. They've never been rock crawlers. I'm curious what scenario you imagine the new Defender in that it won't exceed the capabilities of the original Defender. Remember, Lamborghini started off making tractors. They then made supercars, and now they make SUV's. Brands evolve over time. Speaking of "counter to the nature of the company", let's talk about EVERY SINGLE ONE of Jeeps current offerings with the exception of the Wrangler/Gladiator. ********, even then...remember that time when Jeep offered RWD JK's? Pepperidge farm remembers
All these arguments are circular, changing nothing until the following divergence ends.
Disagree all you want and in the end the financial math always wins.
Jaguar Land Rover unveils shape-shifting 'seat of the future' that tackles the health risks of sitting down for too long by making your brain think that you are walking
Maybe Land Rover can unveil a perception-shifting 'seat of the future' that makes you think the product you are driving is really what you dream of. Until then your business will be 'right-sized' to your product 'success'. Yes, that is redundant.
Disagree all you want and in the end the financial math always wins.
Jaguar Land Rover unveils shape-shifting 'seat of the future' that tackles the health risks of sitting down for too long by making your brain think that you are walking
Maybe Land Rover can unveil a perception-shifting 'seat of the future' that makes you think the product you are driving is really what you dream of. Until then your business will be 'right-sized' to your product 'success'. Yes, that is redundant.
Lovetheworld
Active member
soflorovers
Well-known member
No, but it probably can change that line by a significant percentage. The reality is that the Defender will never sell in the same mass/bulk as a Wrangler. Barrier to entry is too high and I don't think LR would ever consider expanding the manufacturing capacity to meet initial demand. The reality is that L405's were so hot for the first few years that they were commanding a 30k premium over MSRP when they first came out in 2013/2014. Now L405's are going for around 10k under sticker if you find a dealer willing to play ball. LR has a hard time meeting initial demand and then always struggles to maintain the product relevant (to an extent). Also, curious to see how JL's have been selling in 2019 and 2020. There are still 2018 JL's on dealer lots and 2020's can be leased for $320 a month...seems to me like Jeep is struggling to keep the volume going.
JLR's immediate challenge is to increase revenue over operating cost such that they can address the $4B loss. They need to 'change that line' but not by much. Volume is not the goal, profit is. That can be accomplished by restructuring (lower operating cost) and increasing volumes (sell more x/y/z). Keep in mind that they are still in the middle of restructuring (lower cost) while trying to release new products. I do think the new Defender, along with other product releases, will get them back into a net profit. Will they significantly increase volumes? I don't think so because they are offering products at a 'Luxury' level that is highly sensitive to global economic health. JLR is much more exposed to a global recession than say Jeep. The other 'headwinds' are the transition to alternative energy powertrains. The cost of that transition is large while customer adoption is suspect, especially for a off-road product that is targeted at rural travel where that energy (EV) is not available. The other challenge is commoditization. While JLR are touting the large increase in technology offered by the new Defender, the reality is everyone has the same technology. It may be a 'minimum' but it is not a differentiator.
Edit add: JLR needs to design, develop and offer product people actually want to buy. Not necessarily a product that is the 'best 4x4 ever'.
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What are you willing to pay for 'electrification', 'safety' and 'autonomy'? All that new technology?
Well, not much it appears. I'm actually not surprised as I personally don't see the value of all this techno-wizardry that every manufacturer is stumbling over themselves to offer.
What are you willing to pay for car technology? Not much, apparently
Safety, autonomy, EVs — sobering numbers from huge consumer survey
"As OEMs everywhere are frantically developing electric and automated technologies for their vehicles, turns out that the likelihood of a return on their staggering investments is slim. Or so it seems given the results in the 2020 Deloitte Global Automotive Survey, which questioned more than 35,000 consumers in 20 countries.
This is particularly the case in the U.S. market..........."
Well, not much it appears. I'm actually not surprised as I personally don't see the value of all this techno-wizardry that every manufacturer is stumbling over themselves to offer.
What are you willing to pay for car technology? Not much, apparently
Safety, autonomy, EVs — sobering numbers from huge consumer survey
"As OEMs everywhere are frantically developing electric and automated technologies for their vehicles, turns out that the likelihood of a return on their staggering investments is slim. Or so it seems given the results in the 2020 Deloitte Global Automotive Survey, which questioned more than 35,000 consumers in 20 countries.
This is particularly the case in the U.S. market..........."