Oh, the joys of vehicle shopping....


To Infinity and Beyond!
The new car business has changed significantly in the last 5 years. It's now all about volume. The more units you sell the more "Back End" money you get from the manufacturer. Even Lexus and other "High Line" brands are now all about volume.

Yes it's hard for the "Old Time Salesperson" to change from "Let's Negotiate" to "Here's the Price" via the internet. That's why you will never see a 40+ year old new car store Internet Sales Manager! The younger the buyer the greater the chance the only time that young buyer will come to the dealership is when they PICK UP their new/used vehicle purchase. Everything else will be done ON-LINE!

Cash is no longer King. Dealer's want your trade in and they want you to finance your new to you vehicle through them. Trade-in's and financing are a far more profitable part of the vehicle sale process than the actual sale of the vehicle itself. The dealer wants you buy what they have on the lot not what you want to order.

Leasing contracts continue to rise rapidly as Leasing (Just an alternative method of financing and typically the most EXPENSIVE) is once again on the way UP and viewed as an attractive way to drive a vehicle you can't afford! The last number I heard from a Lexus dealer I am acquainted with is that new car leasing now accounts for over 50% of all new vehicle sales at their dealership!

With astronomical MSRP prices and most every domestic OEM vehicle manufacturer promoting the rebate and discount cycle not much in the financing part of the transaction will change other than longer terms for the loan as the OEM's continue to want their customers to continue to be PAYMENT BUYER'S and inflated MSRP prices on new vehicles will continue to ensure this happens.

The attitude of most buyer's today is that I will always have a "Car Payment" so I might as well accept that fact and drive what I want not what I can afford. The average car loan term is now up to almost 70 months (almost 6 years) according to NADA with the reality that those same people taking out a 72 month loan rarely if ever keep that vehicle to end of the loan pay-off. Some highline dealer's are offering 96 month and 108 month loan terms on big money vehicles. Once again customers today now accept the fact that they will ALWAYS have a car payment and I want a new vehicle therefore it's all about the payment!

That's how BROKE PEOPLE think and Dealer's know it!

The biggest sales skill LACKING with most new car store sales people is their ability to LISTEN to what their customer tells them. As hard as it may be for the salesperson to believe not all customers are idiots who follow the HERD! Sometimes it's hard to LISTEN to your customer when your dealership sales training tells you to follow their sales script as that's what works to move the iron as the customer rarely knows what they want!

Welcome to the life of a "New Vehicle" Salesperson!!!
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Viking with a Hammer
I flew through internet sales to find the truck I wanted on sale. Locker and power everything. I didn't want broken cameras, butt massages, broken adaptive steering, broken moon roof, or a broken electric tailgate, model. Hahaha.

I would have been happy with a stripper and elocker. But usually I can find better, for the same price online. Dealer I used, had multiple lots. Found my truck 110 miles away or something, and their porter delivered it the next day.

I'm only concerned about getting stuck with someones ''problem truck'', when buying used. It's easier to trade in, then deal with the complete lack of technical talent in this industry.


When you have specific requiremnts it makes it hard. Vehicle are sold with packages, you can't really pic and choose options. It has been that way for a long time.

The deal is easy if you have the info you need. Buying a new vehicle, when you don't really care or have specific requirements is easy. Buying a used car with specific requirements is hard. It sounds like that is where you are at.

Be nice and polite. Be the person the sales person doesn't mind spending time with. If he offers you water TAKE IT. Let him be your buddy. Tell the sales person you will buy the vehicle right now, let his manager know. Put the pressure on them to sell it. Tell them over and over you want to buy. Don't play games. Just say that price just doesn't seem right. BE NICE!!! Make the like you!!!

Before you go check Kelly blue Book and NADA and use the trade in price (go a bit below) as the invoice price. Get a pre-approved loan. Don't let the dealer know you have a loan. Work on the price and let the dealer screw you on the loan. He will think he is making money off the back end. In most states you can't be charged penalties for early pay off but make sure. and BE NICE!!!! Everybody wants to help a friend!
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New member
In the mid 2000’s we actually had a Toyota dealership stick a v6 emblem on the back of a new 4 cylinder Camry and try to send my wife home in it like we wouldn’t catch on. I wish I was joking.
We stretched out having our co-signer actually sign as long as we could (3 months) and then gave the car back when THEY finally caught on.

Eventually this country’s dealership lobbyists will (hopefully) lose out to the likes of Tesla and the rest and we’ll finally get direct consumer sales.


Wiffleball Batter
The more I think about it, the more I think the biggest difference between buying cars now and in the old, pre-internet days was that back then, you had to rely (at least to some degree) on the salesman (or someone else at the dealer) to get you the basic information on the vehicle. A customer would come into a dealer and tell the dealer "I need a vehicle that will do X, Y and Z" and they would have to trust that the dealer would understand what they needed and be able to find a vehicle that fit those needs.

By having a monopoly on information, the sales force was able to steer customers towards what the dealer wanted to sell rather than what the customer wanted to buy.

Sure, buyers could "comparison shop" between dealers - but in the pre-internet days that would require spending a lot of time looking through sales brochures, making phone calls or physically traveling to and from multiple dealers. That was an option but it was an option that cost time and money. In the end, it was the dealer that held most of the cards in such transactions and the sleazy sales practices reflected that.

Fast forward to today, and now customers can do their own research on-line, from the comfort of their own homes. The salesman, in most cases, is just there to finalize the sale and fill out the paperwork. I think the smart dealers are the ones who recognize this.

I never waste time asking a salesman about any specific feature of a vehicle - I presume that in most cases, I probably know more about the vehicle he is selling than he does (and that's not bragging, it makes sense: After all, a salesman is often someone who has only been there a few months and has to sell an entire line of vehicles, whereas I have time to research the specific vehicle I'm looking for.)

My opinion is that in this day and age, you should know exactly what you want to buy before you even walk through the door. Or, at the very least, have it narrowed down to 2 or 3 so you can walk in and say "these are the two vehicles I want to test drive." Once you know what you want, it's just a matter of finding the one on the lot that has what you require (or that you can live with.) From that point it's just a matter of discussing the out-the-door price and making arrangements for delivery.


Active member
Martin just from a seat of the pants experience we have many f150 EBs at work some with the 2.7 most with the 3.5. Ive towed a 6.5k trailer in the same environment with both. If you are going to tow regularly I highly recomend the 3.5. The 2.7 did ok nothing really bad it required more throttle here and there it did the job. The 3.5 did it so much better. It was just always smoother and easier. On the other hand with both we have had a lot of turbo issues around 50-60k miles. Granted our trucks are always in the dirt and constantly abused. Just something to think about.


To Infinity and Beyond!
Eventually this country’s dealership lobbyists will (hopefully) lose out to the likes of Tesla and the rest and we’ll finally get direct consumer sales.
Be a LONG TIME before direct to consumer sales happens for OEM vehicle manufactures!

Tesla is going to have to go through all 50 states as the "Franchise" laws are different for each state and those "Franchise" laws are the domain of each state not the Federal government. I believe Tesla did prevail in part in Missouri so maybe there is hope!



Beach Bum
I almost always know more about the vehicle I am shopping than the salesman or managers. Sometimes I'll even play dumb and ask a specific question that I already know the answer to just to test them haha.


Expedition Leader
I looked for nearly 18mos for my used Sub, trying to find the right intersection of mechanical and cosmetic condition and price. Time and again misrepresented or sold before I could arrive. When I finally found one I could accept I completely disregarded one of my other important criteria ('not black!') and bought a black vehicle, for use in southwestern deserts.

A few grand for NEW over a used vehicle is something you should seriously consider. If you are looking for that 'new' of a Used vehicle. I'd hate to pay 90% the price of New for a Used vehicle, especially with 30-60k mi on it.

A year ago we scored a good deal on a 'Used' suv/crossover, the missus wanting something that got much more MPG than her aging Tahoe. I like you was looking 'used' 2-3yr old vehicles. 2015-2017. Something I could still get 'Certified' or with an extended drivetrain warranty. After a couple weeks of hunting databases with those years, one day I got lazy and hit 2015+ and discovered a nice little niche in 'Used' vehicles - effectively brand new dealer loaner vehicles, with only a couple hundred miles and full warranties available, but forced by law to be sold as 'Used' at greatly reduced prices. We got an '18 Equinox for about 40% off of new, with 185mi on it. Dealer didn't want to eat it. Tried like hell to steer us into something new. We held fast and said 'this advertised Used car or nothing.'

Not that you are likely to find what you are looking for in that market niche, Martin, but I just thought I'd share it for other car shoppers.
Theyre fleet vehicles so I have no idea on costs. Theyre driven primarily offroad, in rough very dusty conditions and can either be idling for hours, or accelerating to full throttle. Most people wont ever use em like that but just putting it out there.
Ah okay. Just curious. Thank you.