Our (so far) successful dual battery system...

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
Don Luis. Thank you for the kind words. A quick review of my post shows one BIG error. The rule of thumb is 5 amps per hour per 100w of solar panel. And this tracks with what I am seeing in real life.

As you noted, the numbers on this are not hard, but most folks don't apply them properly, are wildly optimistic, and then very disappointed with what they actually get.
 
How do you like the Engel 45 size-wise? I'm absolutely going to run an Engel myself, and I'm thinking either the 27, 35 or the 45.
I'm trying to keep absolutely everything in my build on the smaller/ligher side as total weight is going to be an issue
With the 45, how many days worth of food/drinks for two people can you fit in there?

Have you ever thought the 35 would have been big enough, or do you actually wish you had a little more space?

-Dan
Hey Dan you can send me questions in a PM or by email if you like as well.

As far as which Engel to get I'd say for 2 people I would not go smaller than the 45. We were quite happy with it. The draw on the different size fridges is similar because I do believe they all share the same "innards" in fact you could potentially build your own fridge because they sell said "innards" without the cooler itself, but it'll cost ya... check it out: Ice Box conversion Link
 

sfsmedic

Adventurer
Ok a couple questions. I believe I know the answer but would like confirmation. The CTEK D250S does not require solar it just has the ability to deal with solar correct? So if I am building a dual battery setup with the intent of possibly using solar down the road I will still reap the benefits before I have solar correct?

Secondly. Can you post up a wiring diagram on how you wired everything. That would be very helpful. Thanks for the great info.



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Ok a couple questions. I believe I know the answer but would like confirmation. The CTEK D250S does not require solar it just has the ability to deal with solar correct? So if I am building a dual battery setup with the intent of possibly using solar down the road I will still reap the benefits before I have solar correct?

Secondly. Can you post up a wiring diagram on how you wired everything. That would be very helpful. Thanks for the great info.
Indeed, the D250S has an incorporated charge controller (a very nice one) that you do NOT have to use, but you are paying for it. If you need it in the future I would say it is a good choice.

As far as diagram: I could tell you I will do it, but right now it probably won't happen... I am in the middle of moving back to "normal" life after almost 5 years of being on the road so life is insane right now... and I am enough of a slacker about these things to know I will get to it eventually, but not soon. The fine folk at CTEK have wiring diagrams on their products though and you can always PM me for feedback.

As a side note I'd like to add one negative thing I can think about the D250S: it is not waterproof. It is definitely splash resistant. I have had no issues with it in over 2 years of heavy off road/freeway use.
 

sfsmedic

Adventurer
Did you mount the battery and d250s under the hood or in the bed?


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007

Explorer
Has anyone ever used an adjustable voltage isolator? By this I mean an isolator that doesn't disconnect the batteries as soon as it senses a draw, but allows both batteries to stay connected until it hits a threshold. For instance, you could set the isolator at 12.0 volts and it would keep your batteries combined until they reached that voltage - and then it would disconnect and isolate your starting battery.

I'm looking for a setup that would allow me to use about half of my starting battery's capacity for house needs before isolating it (want the most from two group 31's). And I also want to be able to combine for jump starting and winching.

I've found the traxide usi-160, it looks great because it has traditional isolation (12.7V disconnect) shared mode (disconnects at 12.0) winch mode and jump start. I haven't been able to find a state side dealer for these...

My aim is to find a setup that essentially doubles the usable capacity of my two battery group 31 system, yet leave enough to start my motor (v6 gas).

**This would not be a good idea for a diesel engine with high compression**
 

soul

Observer
I have LiFePO4 running almost a year now. It has BMS, so no worries on over drain, plus 80% usable capacity and over 3000 cycle life. I had to use dc dc converter due to slightly higher voltage of the battery compared to Pb

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southpier

Expedition Leader
... please permit a few, pedantic comments....


I think this should be an entire sub-forum!

Q: with regard to electrical safety, should a battery box & its associated components be housed in a non combustible material?

I understand that anything can burn under the correct circumstances, but I see systems built with heavy duty diamond plate to 2"x4" + plywood paneling - and everything in between. there's got to be a happy medium.
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
Has anyone ever used an adjustable voltage isolator? By this I mean an isolator that doesn't disconnect the batteries as soon as it senses a draw, but allows both batteries to stay connected until it hits a threshold. For instance, you could set the isolator at 12.0 volts and it would keep your batteries combined until they reached that voltage - and then it would disconnect and isolate your starting battery.

I'm looking for a setup that would allow me to use about half of my starting battery's capacity for house needs before isolating it (want the most from two group 31's). And I also want to be able to combine for jump starting and winching.

Two thoughts:

-- I use a Magnum SBC which has an adjustable disconnect voltage. Not down to 12v, but lower than the Blue Sea ACR. http://www.magnumenergy.com/products/SBC.htm

-- But a better idea for winching and jump start is simply an override switch for force combine the batteries when needed. Easy enough to do on your own and the Blue Sea ACR offers both manual (mechanical) and remote switching to do exactly this.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
(You call THAT pedantic? Nah. Now THIS is pedantic!)


CrocodileDundee.jpg








I haven't been around much, and it's been a while. When I first read this I was in a hurry and glossed over it, and besides - it's Diplo so there really isn't any need to double check his posts - he's generally right.

But...

What the hell - it's been a while since I reviewed the docs on these things, so I guess now is a good time to get caught up.



-- AGM batteries want a minimum charge rate of 25A per 100Ah of battery bank and can take a rate of up to 500A per 100 Ah. (Lifeline battery spec.)


As I recall, most AGM manufacturers spec C/4 as MAX charge rate. (for those that don't know; C means total battery or bank capacity; so that formula is "capacity divided by four"). Which would make 25a per 100ah the MAX.


I seem to remember Lifeline used to spec C/2 max (which made them different than the rest), but looking at their latest manual, I see they state their battery can handle C*5 "in-rush current". That might be a bit misleading, since "in-rush current" normally means a short spike (momentary startup surge load) and not a sustained current level and they don't specifically say that their battery can handle a sustained C*5. I wouldn't use that kind of current without calling them first and asking.

http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf (bottom of page 98)

On the next page they say: "For repetitive deep cycling applications (deeper than 50% DOD), chargers should have an output current of at least 0.2C (20 Amps for a 100 Ah battery)."

"should" have...

So that'd be C/5 (recommended, not absolute) minimum charge rate, C*5 (absolute) maximum. Presumably, if the DOD doesn't regularly exceed 50% a smaller charger (such as a small solar rig) could be used without ill effects.


--------------------------------------------


The Odyssey tech manual:

http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-TM-001_0411_000.pdf

Says:

"To properly charge your premium ODYSSEY®battery, EnerSys has developed a special charge algorithm. It is designed to rapidly and safely charge these batteries. Called the IUU profile (a constant current mode followed by two stages of constant voltage charge)," (page 15)

and

"Table 4 shows the minimum charge currents for the full range of ODYSSEY batteries when they are used in deep cycling application. When using a charger with the IUU profile, we suggest the following ratings for your ODYSSEY battery. Note the charger current in the bulk charge mode must be 0.4C10 or more." (page 15)


Their "IUU Profile" is just CC bulk to 14.7v, then CV absorb at 14.7v, then CV float at 13.6v. So that would be (0.4 * C10) or (.4 * 100a = 40a) minimum charger per 100ah for an Odyssey - FOR THE IUU PROFILE.

They do state LOWER amp numbers than that in their table of recommended minimums for various batteries on that same page. Their Table 5 on page 16 shows recommended charge times for I guess all their batteries - and that table ONLY shows charge times using 10a and 20a chargers.

Odyssey does define what they mean by in-rush at the bottom of page 17:
"Inrush is defined in terms of the rated capacity (C10) of the battery. A 0.8C10 inrush on a 100Ah battery is 80A."

Now, all that's from the Odyssey Tech Manual. The Owner's Manual also has some interesting data:

http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-OM-011_0213.pdf

In particular, on page 6:
"If a standard automotive charger is used to boost charge a discharged battery because of an accessory left on, it is important to make sure the charging voltage does not exceed 15 volts during charge. A hand held voltmeter can be used to monitor this periodically. The following chart provides recharge times under this type of boost charging to an 80-95% recharge and then allows the vehicle charging system to complete the charge."

And then they show the same charge times chart that's in the Tech Manual.

So...even though they say 40a per 100ah is the minimum, it really isn't. It's the "preferred" or "recommended" minimum, but you can still get the job done with a smaller charger. In other words - there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Also, I know I read somewhere (or maybe calculated) that the Odyssey MAX rate is C*4, but now I can't find it. If someone could point out where that data is I'd appreciate it.

----------------------------------------------------


According to the Trojan Users Guide, Diagram 6 on page 14, the recommended AGM charge profile does bulk stage at "20% C20".

http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TRJN0109_UsersGuide.pdf

[Whatever the hell that means. Actually, what these C10 and C20 numbers are *supposed* to mean, is the amp*hour capacity at different discharge rates. Most deep cycle batteries are rated in amp*hours at the 20-hour rate. I.e., C20. So, when the Lifeline and Odyssey guys say the charge rate should be a percentage of C10 what that means is that they are basing that on the 10-hour rate, which sucks since they usually list their products amp*hour capacity at the 20-hour rate. Ergo, 40% of the 10-hour rate sure ain't the same as 40% of the 20-hour rate.]


When Trojan says C20, they mean the capacity at the 20-hour rate. In which case, 20% of that would be 20a per 100ah (recommended) charge rate. In other words, C/5. I don't see anything in that manual about minimum or maximum charge rates.


On their web site battery maintainance page, they say this
(Under the Heading Charger Selection):

"When selecting a charger, the charge rate should be between 10% and 13% of the battery’s 20-hour AH capacity. For example, a battery with a 20-hour capacity rating of 225 AH will use a charger rated between approximately 23 and 30 amps (for multiple battery charging use the AH rating of the entire bank). Chargers with lower ratings can be used but the charging time will be increased.

http://www.trojanbattery.com/tech-support/battery-maintenance/

They make no distinction between flooded and AGM there, but further down they do make a distinction when talking about recommended charge voltages.

------------------------------------------------


Optima charge specs are all over the place (thereby proving there is more than one way to skin a cat):

http://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/support/battery-care/charging/

But basically - 15.6v max and no amp limit as long as you don't overheat the battery. That's max. For normal day-to-day use 14.7v and no amp limit as long as you don't overheat.

They don't specify minimum, but they recommend a 10a charger repeatedly on that page, and the biggest super-whoopty high-speed low-drag Optima branded charger is 12a.

----------------------------------------------------


Rolls (Surette) manual says:

"AGM Bulk Stage
The charger should deliver the initial current B until the voltage limit A is reached. Absorption Stage–the charger should maintain the voltage A until the current tapers to B. The initial charge current is recommended to be set at B = 0.25 X C20 (Imax = 0.35 X C20) in order to fully charge the batteries within a reasonable amount of time. It can be set lower, however; please be aware that charge time will increase so make sure the batteries have enough time to fully charge before being put back into service."

http://rollsbattery.com/public/docs/user_manual/Rolls_Battery_Manual.pdf

So Rolls is recommending C/4 or 25a per 100ah as their recommended charge rate for AGMs, and 35a per 100ah as the MAX charge rate.

----------------------------


Specs on the UPG 8D AGM:

http://upgi.com/Themes/leanandgreen/images/UPG/ProductDownloads/45964.pdf

Show 250ah @ 20hr rate, and 75a max charge current which would be about 33.3a per 100ah MAX but at the bottom they list Max Charge Current at 0.30C.

-----------------------------------------------





So...Diplo's statement quoted above applies to Lifelines, and is close enough for Odysseys. But 25a per 100ah is a recommended minimum and you can still get the job done with a lot less than that. And whatever you do - DO NOT assume that just because a battery is AGM it can handle C*5 or 500a per 100ah capacity. Lifelines and Odysseys...yea, okay. But you pump that kinda current into most AGMs and it's probably gonna blow up in your face, kill your dog and make Baby Jesus cry.





[And that, boys and girls, is truly pedantic. :D )








 
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dwh

Tail-End Charlie
I think this should be an entire sub-forum!

Q: with regard to electrical safety, should a battery box & its associated components be housed in a non combustible material?

I understand that anything can burn under the correct circumstances, but I see systems built with heavy duty diamond plate to 2"x4" + plywood paneling - and everything in between. there's got to be a happy medium.


I don't think non-combustible matters. I think non-CONDUCTIVE is a whole lot more important. You aren't going to have a fire in the first place if the stuff doesn't short out. I don't worry about a wooden or plastic battery box, but a metal battery box always gives me the heebie-jeebies.

(That comes from years of working on hot high-voltage circuits. You haven't lived till you've had to disconnect/reconnect a live 400a 240v service entrance housed in a metal box in the concrete stairwell of a basement. Inches of clearance everywhere you turn and anything you touch is going to be grounded. Talk about pucker factor!)
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
I wouldn't use that kind of current without calling them first and asking.

That number was so high that I did. And they confirmed, 5C, not C/5. I have a lot of money tied up in batteries. (FWIW, Optima specs "no limit" on charging current:Wow1: and a rather high voltage. Optima also makes a distinction between a "charger" and "cyclic" use.)

As a practical matter, the highest charge rate that I have ever achieved was between 150 and 200A, and that requires that the 600Ah bank be over 150Ah down. So, if my maths are right, the highest charge rate I can achieve is C/3. The way my truck is wired, the camper batteries are always buffered from the alternator/regulator by the starter batteries.

The Lifeline folks did stress another point, time, time, and more time. They commented that batteries are more likely to be damaged by not being charged long enough. They are great believers in the acceptance stage of charging. Which makes me, in turn, a great believer in solar kits.

And thank you for the compliment; I appreciate it and I will try to live up to it.
 

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