so when is enough too much when winching or tugging out?

s.e.charles

Well-known member
if vehicle #1 gets stuck, and vehicle #2 cannot move #1 with either winch or strap, is it ever acceptable for vehicle #3 to latch on to #2 with the intention of doubling the pull power?

or is there a time when you just have to call it a day?
 

Scoutn79

Adventurer
It is but ALL of your tow points, frames and recovery gear need to be able to handle the strain.
The last option IMO would be to hook two tow vehicles together and have them both do a jerk pull. If the strap comes off of the stuck vehicle one tow rig could slam unto the rear of the other. You could anchor the winch rig to the second vehicle or use two winches at to different tow points on the stuck rig. Lots of options but you really have to use your head and think it through....What is the weakest link in the plan, would some shoveling/jacking help relieve some of the force required? One of the most dangerous parts of off-roading is vehicle recovery....

Case in point. one thing we really impress upon our members are properly mounted winch bumpers and tow points, NO tow balls.
I was trying to recover a friend who we had wheeled with for 10 years, so he knew what was required, using a jerk strap and, unknown to me, he had mounted his tow hook with onegrade 5 bolt, not two grade 8 bolts...well I had to give a pretty hard tug and the bolt sheared. The tow hook missed everyone including my truck but I was furious. By-standers said they could hear the hook whizzing by. So with his only tow hook out of operation, and somewhere about 300 yds up the trail he decided to use his winch and guess what. Yup, he used two grade 5 bolts instead of 4 grade 8 to mount the bumper on and ripped the winch right off the front of the truck...and this guy is an engineer!!!!!
Point of the story is if you are using your own rig YOU check that the other rigs tow point won't cause you problems.....The strongest tow ring is only as strong as what it is mounted to.

Now that I have veered completely off topic.......

Darrell
 

s.e.charles

Well-known member
odd. I was hiking the other day and found a tow hook embedded in the trunk of a pine tree. ha ha - just kidding.

but reading the thread about the guy that hauled the rear X out from under his tacoma, and the video link in the same thread about the guy getting the body ripped off his stuck jeep chassis made me think, or realize is probably a better description, of just how $$$crewed you can get in a very short time by making one bad decision.
 

rickc

Adventurer
There was some similar discussion on another thread. I think what's often missing from the equation is simple physics. There is no point tugging on an object that is jammed behind an immovable object; this is why it's always a good idea to build/dig ramps to help direct wheels up and over, assisting the winch or tow vehicle.

Most of our trucks do not have rated recovery points; mine included. I have left and right front factory "recovery hooks", not hooks at all but shackles (non-rated) that are bolted using two bolts per "hook" to the frame. I don't know if the bolts are high tensile as I can't see them without taking the front end apart (to be done very soon so I will report back). The "hooks" also go out straight then are bent to point down, I think for looks only as I have no idea why a shackle would be shaped this way. The manual states that they are "only to be used for straight pulls (this means a short tow) to get the vehicle to a safe space where it can be safely driven", or something to that effect.

Darrell's comments are so important. My recovery gear was bought for an AMG Hummer and now I have a Chevy Colorado. It's getting heavier by the day with me adding bits but still, my big shackles and big snatch strap are overkill for my truck; my truck will fail first! I've been on ARB's case already to make rated recovery points for the Colorado; I'm adding an ARB Summit bull bar in two weeks with a WARN winch so I'll be OK but I would be happier to have rated points up front; I'm only half-prepared. ARB stated that they are considering rated points; already available for the Holden Colorado's in Australia. My immediate solution is to use a yolk at front, using both left and right "hooks"; better than nothing.

s.e.charles' comments remind me how important it is to stress watching as may YouTube recovery fail videos as you can; learn from others' mistakes. The examples of front or rear ends being yanked off are often a result of bad physics, way too much speed/inertia and really bad "recovery points"; axles are not recovery points and more often than not, neither are aftermarket front and rear bumpers, not forgetting tie down hoops!. Darrell already covered two balls.
 

kbroderick

New member
s.e.charles' comments remind me how important it is to stress watching as may YouTube recovery fail videos as you can; learn from others' mistakes. The examples of front or rear ends being yanked off are often a result of bad physics, way too much speed/inertia and really bad "recovery points"; axles are not recovery points and more often than not, neither are aftermarket front and rear bumpers, not forgetting tie down hoops!. Darrell already covered two balls.

Speaking of aftermarket bumpers, mine arrived with grade-five bolts for mounting, three or four on each side (mount positioned perpendicular to the bumper, so it would be a straight shear test if the bumper were pulled directly forward). I'd have to do the math again to be sure if it were three or four per side, but the total shear strength of that many bolts was just about equal to the theoretical pulling power of a 12k winch, without much in the way of wiggle room. I emailed the guys who made the bumper with my math (and said "did I miss something here?") and got back a very apologetic response that boiled down to "most of our bumpers mount with at least two additional bolts, we didn't double-check the math on that application; please let us know if you want us to ship you better hardware or reimburse you for buying it at the hardware store."

I'm leaving the company name out because (a) they did promise to switch to upgraded hardware for that application and (b) it could slip by anywhere when you're dealing with x bumpers times y vehicle mounts, let alone the dude down the street who welds up cool bumpers after work, and (c) as noted above, it's up to you to know what the systems you're putting together are capable of before you use them. If I can help it, I'm going to try really hard not to be using the bumper recovery points for any dynamic recoveries of full-size rigs or fully mired mid-sized rigs, because I know that there's not a lot of margin built into the mounting system.
 

rickc

Adventurer
Kbroderick makes great points. They sum-up why I went with ARB; the company has been around a very long time and their bumpers are very much function before form, although I prefer the Aussie look vs. Transformer. I figured if these bumpers are the primary choice of so many hardcore Aussie bush trucks, they are good enough for me. Same goes for my massive Lightforce 240 XGTs. There's also a WARN Zeon 10S Platinum winch hiding in the bar:

IGZsfdR.jpg
 

Buliwyf

Viking with a Hammer
Shovel. Cribbage.

Mankind used to move giant stones by hand with just basic tools. You can't win a tug of war with the Earth. Don't be one of those guys with too much winch, and rip your frame right off of the axles.

..and +1 on the Lightforce. I'll take those or FYRLYT's over little LED's any day.
 

SDDiver5

Expedition Leader
I have a pulley in my recovery bag. Haven't ever had to use it but I imagine if I ever got in a situation like whats noted above I would be able to.
 

vintageracer

To Infinity and Beyond!
All this discussion makes me wonder what the strength would be on the "Tow Hooks" that GM factory installed on the front end frame horns on millions of Tahoe's, Suburbans and PU trucks?

The factory GM the tow hooks are bolted with 2 bolts to the bottom of the frame rail at the very front end of the open box frame rail. The frame rail is 1/8 inch to 3/16 inch flat steel at best with 2 bolts of unknown grade.

Given the responses above it seems to "Me" that it would not be difficult at all to rip the tow mounting point from the frame.

Anyone with experience with GM tow hooks that would care to comment?
 

Mundo4x4Casa

West slope, N. Ser. Nev.
Successful extraction and winching is an art form honed by a lot of practice and application. To the O.P.'s question, I would say it depends. Firstly, I would never try a two rig pull unless it was the last chance at recovery, and never with two straps and no winch. There are too many things that could go wrong. Too many quickly moving and uncoordinated parts. Slow and focused are the parameters: one move at a time and stay safe with audibles. Are there any obstructions that would cause a dead pull? If you could make sure the wheels will roll, or at least the chassis slide, one winch should do the trick with an operator who knows what they are doing. The other not-so-obvious point is always have an equal size rig or larger pull the other out. I remember watching 3 CJ's trying in vain to pull out one H-1 Mil spec hummer. All for naught. Another H-1 came one the scene and, voila!, one extraction completed. Pulling anything with my 15K pound Warn on my empty RAM usually requires a dead man: a means to make the wincher immobile while winching. After having my truck just slide, wheels locked, toward the winchee a few times it was obvious that a dead man was the ticket. To really slow things down and almost double the power, a snatch block is the right tool. But there are caveats. My 15K winch only has 90 feet of 1/2 inch cable so folding it in half gives a max of about 40 feet of pull. My old CJ-8 with the Warn 8274 (fastest winch in the west) had 150 feet of 5/16 wire rope, plenty enough to use a snatch block. Damn, that was a great winch. In 1969 we had 3 chained (tires) up Toyota FJ-40's attempting to get into Domeland (now closed to vehicles) in the Southern Sierra through 3 feet of freshly fallen snow I think around New Years Day. Occasionally, we had all 3 FJ's closed up and pushing each other like a multi unit train engine lashup. Since they all had the same bumper height and stock tires it worked pretty well. In conclusion, I would only use a strap if it were a relatively easy and controlled pull and would not need brute force or a quick pull. Even then, D rings on both ends of a looped, both ends strap that has well over the capacity needed.
jefe
 

rickc

Adventurer
vintageracer: I've discussed the same topic on this and other forums; your concerns are very valid. My 16 Colorado manual tells me that my truck has "recovery hooks" used only "for pulling the truck to a safe location from which to continue driving". They are not hooks, they are static, unrated shackles as you describe, bolted with 2 unknown grade bolts, one hoop on each side. What's also wrong in my opinion is that they bend down towards the front, indicating that their primary function is a tie down location, not for pulling. ARB make rated recovery points for the Holden Colorado's down under but don't do the same for the northern trucks. I have not had to use my "hooks" yet but if I do, I will probably set up a short yoke up front with a short strap, using both hooks to share the load. I would not feel safe using a snatch strap extraction with these little "hooks". I 've been thinking about checking a bolt to see what it is and if necessary replace all four with rated, high tension hardware.

Off-topic: Mike, what vintage do you race?
 

Happy Joe

Apprentice Geezer
Much ado about not much, IMO. I don't believe that I have ever seen aftermarket winch hardware that was more than grade 5 (usually four approximately 3/8" bolts). Only saw one (of 2) 1/2 inch grade five tow hook bolts shear (from the Jeep CJ being dropped, several feet, onto the side of the hook)... (I have seen rather large chain break due to shock loading so know what you are doing and do not shock load your recovery points or their support hardware).
I some times use stock GM and Ford hooks and loops when they fit better; they work fine (although I believe the newer bolts are metric).
If you are worried about recovery point failure as a result of single shear bolt mounting (box the mount so that the bolts are in double shear and spread the force over a larger area of frame when you weld it together).

Be aware that large forces may be involved and destruction/damage/injury/amusing videos may result from use by the functionally unconscious... (don't be).
 

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