What batteries do you recommend?

[4x4junkie]

True, but you can't mount a flooded lead acid battery on its side and there is no comparison on the capacity question. For dual purpose batteries in this size range, if you have a lot of load (lights, winch, OBA, refrigerator, etc.), AGM is the way to go unless you have room and weight capacity for a bank of flooded batteries. Heck, a bunch of Trojan 6V golf cart batteries will give you more capacity, but where will you mount them? You gotta pay to play, and goofy maintenance seems to be the price of admission on the big Odysseys. Northstar claims that theirs are not picky about charging or desulfation, and I know the Optimas are not picky because I have been running them since about 1998 in various vehicles. You pay your money and take your choice.

How often do people actually mount their batteries on their side (end, upside-down, etc.)? I think I can count on one hand the number of times over the last two decades I've seen someone mount a battery in any position but straight up, and all but once it was on rigs like rock crawler buggies, etc. So IMO that is insignificant for our type of use.

There's also very little capacity difference between AGM or FLA. I've seen the ratings go either way among different brand batteries of a given size which type has more Ah and/or reserve (battery weight is much more closely tied to capacity than type in a lead-acid battery). I will concede AGMs typically do edge out FLAs for CCA, but unless you're trying to start your rig from some tiny little battery you've swapped in place of the battery it's supposed to have, you're generally not going to have an issue as long as your battery is healthy.

My rig has a winch, OBA, fridge, 2-way radios, 20W of LED campsite lighting (that gets turned on at dusk and stays on up until we call it a night, usually around 11:00P-12:00A), playing the stereo at low-med volume... My two FLA batteries (95Ah ea) have always handled this fine. I normally do supplement them with a 170W solar setup if I plan to be stationary for awhile, but even without that I can get minimum two days use like that.

In our RV, the furnace fan seems to be the big energy hog, but combined with lights, water pump, and (again) playing the radio all day, they'll go 3 or more days no trouble.

Many years back we actually did try AGM in the RV. This was before I became more familiar with battery care, however under the same care it did get it did not last any longer than any of the FLA batteries we had used before it (about 4 years), this after we spent 2½ times as much on it.
I see it over & over the posts around here (your own included) about AGM batteries that typically last anywhere from about 1-5 years, which is no different than FLA batteries. With proper care & charging, I think both types have the potential to last 10 or more years... I've already shown this to be the case with the pair of older-version Delco Voyager FLAs I have in one of my rigs that are coming up on eleven years old now (tested them last year, showed about ~80% of new capacity).

With my new Ultimizer charger/conditioner, I only have to buzz my 2150 for 6-8 hours. And I have never (ever) had to buzz my Odyssey 34/78s or any of my many Optima Red or Yellow 34/78s. Doesn't mean there have not been some failures over the years, but sulfation has not been a problem with the smaller batteries.

It is not possible to desulfate a battery in 6-8 hours. I think you're confusing desulfation with simple absorptive charging (often called a "conditioning charge" if done to a battery not normally treated to a 3-stage charging profile via solar, etc.).
Crystallized lead sulfate normally takes a minimum of a couple days to fully return it to it's acid & lead constituents (much longer if there is a significant amount of it), and can only be done with very sharp high-current pulses (typically several amps pulsed for mere microseconds at a rate of ~1000Hz, essentially causing the current to "ring" through the battery, breaking up the sulfate). A simple "conditioning" charger is ineffective at dissolving crystallized lead sulfate.

Some info about sulfation and desulfators here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–acid_battery#Sulfation_and_desulfation
https://web.archive.org/web/2013112...st.net/~ddenhardt201263/desulfator/desulf.htm

 

[Chunkymyster]

It really doesn't matter what private label you go with most are made by these companies Delphi, Exide and Johnson Controls. but I tend to stay with AGM not the blue tops because their mats are coiled a lot of empty space in between the "6 pack" vs. flat and more surface area like most others. Both are maintenance free no worry on battery acid spills for those hard core 4WDrivers and Overlanders.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

How often do people actually mount their batteries on their side (end, upside-down, etc.)?

OK, here we go. I have had an AGM 34/78 mounted on its side under the cab of my Dodge for maybe eight or nine years. Started with an Optima Red because that is what I had. Then I bought an Odyssey 1500 and moved the Optima Red to another truck that needed a starting battery, and it's still going strong. That Odyssey has been in there (on its side) for about six years and just got replaced with an Optima Blue 34M Dual Purpose, also on its side. That old Odyssey will go on the rack with two old Optima Yellows and another Odyssey 1500 that I keep as spares. And I just fabbed up a new battery box so that I could mount another Optima Blue (on its side) under the cab. Both of the Optimas are mounted to the frame rails in heavy steel battery boxes (with reinforcement), and are tucked up very close to the floor of the cab. Because they are on their sides, I can easily access the posts if I ever need to jump a truck in the event my main battery has failed. And if my main battery is ever stolen (could happen), the truck is set up so that I can start and drive the truck with no battery in the engine compartment and no farting around with the cables. Just set a switch on the dash and go. My house batteries are on their sides because that is the only way to get them under the truck and protected from rocks and logs. I don't want to give up any cab or bed space to batteries. So, I guess I'm the guy who mounts them on their sides. Remember when I said "Gotta buy the battery that matches your needs"? FLAs don't meet my needs.

I can count on one hand the number of times over the last two decades I've seen someone mount a battery in any position but straight up, and all but once it was on rigs like rock crawler buggies, etc. So IMO that is insignificant for our type of use.

If you want to see another one, you can come and look at mine. It's not a rock crawler or a buggy, it's a truck that does what I want it to do. It does have a big winch and a big compressor and a big refrigerator and lots of lights.

It is not possible to desulfate a battery in 6-8 hours. I think you're confusing desulfation with simple absorptive charging (often called a "conditioning charge" if done to a battery not normally treated to a 3-stage charging profile via solar, etc.).

I am not confused and both the tech support people at Odyssey and the boys at Advance Battery in Culver City will disagree with you. The key is zapping the battery with high voltage and high amperage, which most consumer chargers simply can't do. The 50amp Ultimizer is a $300 charger, so most folks do not have one. And the more sophisticated chargers do not use a 3-stage charging profile. The newest ones are using an 8 or 9-stage profile. I have a new Ctek 7002 that works wonders on old AGMs, and that is why I can keep my retired Optima and Odyssey AGMs around as spares. But the Ctek 7002 does not put out enough amperage to work satisfactorily on the Odyssey 31M, hence the Ultimizer sitting in my garage.

There's also very little capacity difference between AGM or FLA.

Depends on how you define capacity. With an equal weight of lead, an AGM and an FLA will have about the same aH capacity. But the AGM will be able to put out much higher CA and CCA because of the plate design and surface area of the plates. My winch draws north of 400 amps on a continuous pull, and doing it at night with lights on will strain the more common FLA batteries, even the big ones. Guys who have trucks similar to mine (Dodge Power Wagon) who still have the factory FLA battery with the 160amp or newer 180amp alternators are constantly complaining about battery drain with the big winches. Those of us with big AGM batteries don't seem to have that problem. And AGMs recharge faster because of the plate area.

A simple "conditioning" charger is ineffective at dissolving crystallized lead sulfate.

I agree. That is why I don't use a simple conditioning charger.

 

[LR Max]

Deka. Perfect compromise between high quality and price point. Been in my bouncy old 109 for 3 years now. No issues.

Do your research on Optimas. For a while there they were burning down trucks.

Odyssey = the bestest. There are some sears batteries that are made by Odyssey...but are labeled sears...dunno. Use google for clarification.

Last option: cheapest one you can find. Run for 4 years. Throw away. Replace.

 

[Airmapper]

Per Odyssey, if you don't charge their big AGMs at 14.7+V and high amperage, you will lose a miniscule amount of capacity on each charge cycle and that eventually adds up to a battery that won't take or hold a full charge. Full charge on these is defined as 12.84V or higher (my new one is a tick over 13V after a stint on an Odyssey charger). If you put a multimeter on your Odyssey and it shows, for example, 12.7V open circuit voltage (OCV), then you are probably at only 80% of full charge (the charge capacities are on the Odyssey web site).

Thanks for this info. I started a whole thread expressing this concern, and got no definitive, technical consensus, other than "yeah sure the alternator will cover it."

Looks like I'm in the market for a charger.....I just hope it's constant hanging around 12.6V for this summer hasn't hurt it much. (Yes I've been monitoring it's typical voltage. My alternator only charges at 14.3Vish.)

 

[Ducky's Dad]

Looks like I'm in the market for a charger.....I just hope it's constant hanging around 12.6V for this summer hasn't hurt it much. (Yes I've been monitoring it's typical voltage. My alternator only charges at 14.3Vish.)

Odyssey has a list of approved/recommended chargers on their web site, and the recommendations vary by size of battery. The lowest amperage recommended by Odyssey for the 31M is 25amps, and more is better. There is a Ctek on the list that they say works for the 31M, but I couldn't get one when I went to buy it. The Odyssey Ultimizers are discontinued but if you can find a 50amp Single, grab it. A couple of months ago they had some 40amp 3-Banks available at closeout prices ($140 or so with free shipping) so that's what I got. It is a real pain to use because it's set up to do three big AGMs simultaneously (with time slicing so that each battery gets the full 40amp input), so you have two extra sets of jumper connections hanging off the charger at all times. The Cteks are smaller, lighter, and cheaper but the Ctek I have is designed for the smaller batteries (like Grp 34), so I have no experience with the big Ctek.

Re your 14.3V alternator output: Almost two years ago I did a drive from the Oregon border to Pasadena, virtually straight through except for a couple of gas stops, with a 160amp alternator. Got home, put the multimeter on the battery the next morning and it showed less than full charge. Called Odyssey and they told me that I had not driven long enough to fully charge that sucker. 600 miles not long enough? That is when we got into the weeds on the charging voltage and amperage and reconditioning issues. I have a volt meter in the truck and my usual cruising speed charge is around 14.2-14.3V, and it will occasionally touch 14.6V. Per Odyssey, that is just not enough.

Optima and Northstar claim that they do not have similar charging/conditioning requirements. I have a new Northstar 31M, so I guess I'll find out. Have not had problems with the smaller Odysseys (Grp34 and 34/78). One of the founders of Odyssey told me that he puts his personal vehicle (not a daily driver) on an Ultimizer every eight weeks or so and it's something like eight years old. He also told me that the batteries sold into the commercial market are the same ones sold to the military, but the military vehicles have alternators set up to deliver the voltage these batteries need.

Oh, and I just added a couple of National Luna battery monitors to the Dodge so that I can easily check battery status from the cab. Put a double monitor in the back seat area for the two house batteries and fitting a single monitor in the center console for the main starting battery. You can set these with alarms to alert to low voltage conditions (mostly for the refrigerator in my case) and you can also turn off the display completely. I think they add a tiny bit of parasitic drain even when turned off, but I need to confirm that.

 

[4x4junkie]

If you want to see another one, you can come and look at mine. It's not a rock crawler or a buggy, it's a truck that does what I want it to do. It does have a big winch and a big compressor and a big refrigerator and lots of lights.

Ok, fair enough. I'll add one more to my tally then (people that mount their battery other than upright). I think that makes 5 or 6... Whether or not I have to use two hands to count it now, it's still a very small number (perhaps we should find out whether the OP actually intends to mount his sideways ).

I am not confused and both the tech support people at Odyssey and the boys at Advance Battery in Culver City will disagree with you. The key is zapping the battery with high voltage and high amperage, which most consumer chargers simply can't do. The 50amp Ultimizer is a $300 charger, so most folks do not have one. And the more sophisticated chargers do not use a 3-stage charging profile. The newest ones are using an 8 or 9-stage profile. I have a new Ctek 7200 that works wonders on old AGMs, and that is why I can keep my retired Optima and Odyssey AGMs around as spares. But the Ctek 7200 does not put out enough amperage to work satisfactorily on the Odyssey 31M, hence the Ultimizer sitting in my garage.

I looked up your Ultimizer charger... It does NOT do desulfation. The Ultimizer is a standard 3-stage charging unit (Bulk, Absorb, Float).
(I'll assume you did not bother to click on either one of the links I gave you in my last post)

Depends on how you define capacity. With an equal weight of lead, an AGM and an FLA will have about the same aH capacity. But the AGM will be able to put out much higher CA and CCA because of the plate design and surface area of the plates. My winch draws north of 400 amps on a continuous pull, and doing it at night with lights on will strain the more common FLA batteries, even the big ones. Guys who have trucks similar to mine (Dodge Power Wagon) who still have the factory FLA battery with the 160amp or newer 180amp alternators are constantly complaining about battery drain with the big winches. Those of us with big AGM batteries don't seem to have that problem. And AGMs recharge faster because of the plate area.


I agree. That is why I don't use a simple conditioning charger.

You've mostly just reiterated what I already said (though exaggerating it somewhat). But now you're comparing a "big" AGM battery to a "factory" battery... You really should be comparing your grp-31 AGM to a grp-31 FLA if you want to be more fair about it.
I'm guessing you must use only one battery (your starting battery) to do your winching? (which would better-support your argument for AGM) I have two batteries in parallel for my winching, the current being split between two batteries makes any difference in battery HCA/CCA ratings much less significant.
However the OP here has stated he does not have any high draw accessories (which obviously would include a winch), so all this talk about big winches and battery drain is moot.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

I looked up your Ultimizer charger... It does NOT do desulfation. The Ultimizer is a standard 3-stage charging unit (Bulk, Absorb, Float).

When I referenced the newer 8 and 9-step chargers, I was not referring to the Ultimizer but to chargers like this one, which is what I tried to buy but could not get when I needed it:

CTEK MULTI US 25000 (Part No. 56-674) is an 8-step, fully automatic primary switch mode battery charger.
Patented desulfation function
Unused batteries lose their power and their life is shortened through sulphation. It is also more difficult to charge sulfated batteries. CTEK MULTI US 25000 has a patented method for reconditioning sulfated batteries. The charger analyses the state of the battery and then, if possible, recovers the battery and its power.

http://smartercharger.com/products/batterychargers/ctek-multi-us-25000/
I own the smaller version of this charger (7002), plus an Optimate 6, plus the Ultimizer, plus several more traditional chargers. Some are smarter than others.

More later, but I have to get some work done.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

I looked up your Ultimizer charger... It does NOT do desulfation.

You did not look far enough. This is from page 8 of the Ultimizer Owner's Manual:

Desulfation Mode
If the battery is left discharge for an extended period of time, it could become sulfated
and not accept a normal charge. If the charger detects a sulfated battery, the charger
will switch to a special mode of operation designed for such batteries. Activation of the
special desulfation mode is indicated by the CHARGING LED blinking. If successful,
normal charging will resume after the battery is desulfated. The CHARGING LED will
then stop blinking and light continuously. Desulfation could take up to 10 hours. If
desulfation fails, charging will abort and the CHECK LED will blink.

http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/ODYSSEYUltimizerChargerOwnersManual0099001202-03.pdf
I really do need to get some work done now, but I just couldn't wait to post this one for your edification.

 

[Inyo_man]

I have been looking at the DieHard Platinum Automotive Battery Group Size 35 but not sure if that is perfect for my needs or not. Any help appreciated!

I have the DieHard Platinum 34M (Marine deep cell/starting) Model #50134
850cca
135rc

...excellent working battery.
No complaints at all!

My old Optima yellow top finally gave up the ghost and I was afraid of replacing with a "new" Optima. After they moved production to Mexico, I'm hearing the longevity is not as good as it used to be.

 

[4x4junkie]

You did not look far enough. This is from page 8 of the Ultimizer Owner's Manual:

http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/ODYSSEYUltimizerChargerOwnersManual0099001202-03.pdf
I really do need to get some work done now, but I just couldn't wait to post this one for your edification.

Interesting... The brochure on their website does not mention anything about a desulfation mode.
http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-ULT-010_0413.pdf
I still question how effective it can be in just 10 hours though.

I still think you should read up about the process on which it works. Done properly, desulfation can very often return a battery with lost capacity to near-new performance as long as the battery hasn't actually "shed" material from it's plates. Desulfation MUST be done with the battery disconnected from the vehicle however (other stuff connected to the battery introduces capacitance to the circuit which reduces the effectiveness of the current pulses). I'll bet many of those batteries you mentioned awhile back could be returned to primary service (not just kept around as "spares").

 

[blackwood]

I have not tested my Tundra's voltage yet, but I know the Dodge is pretty consistent at 14.2-14.3V, and the only way to get 14.7V is to install an external voltage regulator (which nobody thinks is a good idea). Per Odyssey, if you don't charge their big AGMs at 14.7+V and high amperage, you will lose a miniscule amount of capacity on each charge cycle and that eventually adds up to a battery that won't take or hold a full charge.

My 5.7L Tundra with the stock 150amp alternator puts out about 13.7v-13.8V on the highways according to my Scangage. I've seen it go 13.3V on the streets. It never stays above 14V for long. I'm using a cheapie AGM battery from a large parts chain. These Tundras are known for the low alternator voltage output.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

I still think you should read up about the process on which it works.

I have.

Desulfation MUST be done with the battery disconnected from the vehicle

The instructions generally say that, or mandate removing the battery from the vehicle. They do this for the benefit of those who are easily confused. All you really need to do is to disconnect the ground from the battery or batteries.

could be returned to primary service (not just kept around as "spares").

The second battery in my old truck is one that I reconditioned, and it works fine. But I don't want to be out in the boonies with salvaged batteries as my primary source of power. All of my "spares" are fully functional, or seem to be. The ones that aren't go into the "cores" pile. When I bought the Northstar, the dealer wanted $35 or a core, so I just pulled one off the pile. I have too much crap sitting around but every time I get rid of something, I need it a week later.

I still question how effective it can be in just 10 hours though.

I know you are questioning the Ultimizer, but I have not yet had to use it on a severely compromised battery (see note below), but did use it to top off my new Odyssey 31M before I installed it in the truck just to make sure I had a good battery. I did use both the Optimate 6 and the Ctek 7002 on some old beater AGM batteries and they came right back to life. The Optimate 6 works OK, but the Ctek seems to be a lot faster and gives a better result. The Optimate (not same as Optima) guys are working on a higher voltage version of the Optimate 6. The O-6 is 6amps at 14.6V max and they have acknowledged that 14.7V would be better, so they will have a new version soon (may already be available). But even the new O-6 at 14.7V will not be effective on an Odyssey 31M. I used the Ctek 7002 on both FLAs and AGMs, but nothing bigger than a Grp 34 (make sure you change the setting on the charger when you change battery type). Eight hours seems to be about the right length of time for that unit, little less for AGM and a little more for FLA.

Note: I did test the Ultimizer on my old, very very very dead Odyssey 31M and all it did was heat up the battery and vent the gasses. Had no expectation that the battery would be recoverable, but had to try it. It got the battery real hot real fast, so monitoring is probably a good idea the first time around.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

Tundras are known for the low alternator voltage output.

Thanks. I kind of suspected that, just based on the grapevine.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

My old Optima yellow top finally gave up the ghost and I was afraid of replacing with a "new" Optima. After they moved production to Mexico, I'm hearing the longevity is not as good as it used to be.

The early production out of Mexico was crap. I had a few of those and that was what pushed me to Odyssey. I hear from reliable sources that the new Optimas are back to being a quality product, so I just took a chance on a pair of Blue dual purpose for my new house batteries. I got a real good price on the Optimas, but if prices were equal I would have bought Northstar or Odyssey.